Bombing Table - Direct MILS?

[paura19]

How is your experience with "Bombing Table"? Direct mode of delivery.

The Direct mode of delivery calculate MILS which do not work for me. 

Example in this video:
Low Level Attack 500TAS, 500MSL, is 195mils  140 in game.

my track 195mils
 F4 direct low level 195mils .trk

 

=========================
Mbot set 55mils for his attack:

Edited May 27, 2024 by paura19

[MBot]

My initial impression is that the Bombing Table puts out a ballpark figure which probably works good enough if you drop a bomb stick that is 300 ft in length. It seems to have a lookup table or something that isn't very granular. The mils value only seem to change for every 50 knots or so.

What I will definitely do is for profiles which I intend to use frequently to confirm mils settings with active pause (put the jet into the desired dive angle, speed altitude, hit active pause, drop a bomb, then dial in the mils to move the pipper on the bomb impact location).

[Nealius]

I feel it's a bit of a stopgap that will be improved later, judging by the lack of rockets depression tables/calculator, and a guns table with only three entries: two being unusually high and one not having a release altitude at all.

[Zabuzard]

10 hours ago, MBot said:

My initial impression is that the Bombing Table puts out a ballpark figure which probably works good enough if you drop a bomb stick that is 300 ft in length. It seems to have a lookup table or something that isn't very granular. The mils value only seem to change for every 50 knots or so.

The bombing table tool simulates the drop using DCS ingame physics computation. It spits out the exact values that guarantee an exact hit if you fly the parameters perfectly and there is zero wind. If you do not see the drag coeff changing, that is because the change is behind the decimal resolution that the Phantom can input into its computer

Note that for the type of attack done in the video, you should be using the LAYDOWN mode, not DIRECT. Laydown was specifically made for releasing high drags from level (and low).

Edited May 28, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Zabuzard]

Please make sure you fly TAS, not IAS. In the video it appears you are not looking at your TAS gauge (top left corner, a bit hidden). At these speeds, with high drags, not flying the parameters 100% can easily cause offsets of hundreds of feets if you miss the correct drop point just by a second.

[MBot]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

The bombing table tool simulates the drop using DCS ingame physics computation. It spits out the exact values that guarantee an exact hit if you fly the parameters perfectly and there is zero wind. If you do not see the drag coeff changing, that is because the change is behind the decimal resolution that the Phantom can input into its computer

I am sorry but I do not think this is entierly correct. When I played around with the bombing table tool for a Direct delivery, I changed the speed in small steps but the mils did not adjust until I got the the next 50 kts or so (then the mils changed by a large value of about 20). So something is not working correctly in that case. I will provide some screenshots this evening when I am home.

I have been determining a 55 mils value for a 15° dive, 1'500 ft, 540 KTAS with Mk-82 using the active pause methode. In my video posted below I have been hitting these values very precisely and got a direct hit. I can fly this profile repeatetly and get good results. The bombing table tool on the other hand is suggesting 71 mils for these values which is wrong by actual practice.

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by MBot

[Zabuzard]

Try clicking elsewhere on the page. For performance reasons the tool waits until you are done changing values before it asks DCS to do the heavy computations.
So you wont see the solutuon updating while you use the up/down arrows on the input fields :)

[HB_Painter]

Hey so I am not sure what exactly the problem is here. In the provided track the bomb falls exactly at the pipper with 195 mils setting. As you can see the in the picture.

NOTE: The discrepancy here from impact point to pipper comes from me having to take control over the aircraft which disabled the pause function for a few miliseconds as well from my reaction time in pausing when the bomb was released!

[HB_Painter]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb MBot:

I am sorry but I do not think this is entierly correct. When I played around with the bombing table tool for a Direct delivery, I changed the speed in small steps but the mils did not adjust until I got the the next 50 kts or so (then the mils changed by a large value of about 20). So something is not working correctly in that case. I will provide some screenshots this evening when I am home.

I have been determining a 55 mils value for a 15° dive, 1'500 ft, 540 KTAS with Mk-82 using the active pause methode. In my video posted below I have been hitting these values very precisely and got a direct. I can fly this profile repeatetly and get good results. The bombing table tool on the other hand is suggesting 71 mils for these values which is wrong by actual practice.

 

Hey thanks for the report! We will investigate this

[Fromthedeep]

20 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

Try clicking elsewhere on the page. For performance reasons the tool waits until you are done changing values before it asks DCS to do the heavy computations.
So you wont see the solutuon updating while you use the up/down arrows on the input fields

I tried it both using active pause and with active pause off. Any kind of lag or delay is not a problem, it changes nicely once it's above a given value that triggers the change. It gives the same mil value through 421 and 481 KTAS, 71 mils. At 420 it gives 89 mils and at 482 it gives 53 mils. It's not nearly as granular as it's supposed to be. 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Fromthedeep

[MBot]

5 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

Any kind of lag or delay is not a problem, it changes nicely once it's above a given value that triggers the change. It gives the same mil value through 421 and 481 KTAS, 71 mils. At 420 it gives 89 mils and at 482 it gives 53 mils. It's not nearly as granular as it's supposed to be. 

Thanks for documenting it with screenshots, I have been seeing exactly the same thing.

[paura19]

@HB_Painter but I aimed on RWY.

CasmoTV set same 140 miles fot this 500,500 attack.
I will make more tracks in the evening.

I tried LAYDOWN, but my 4nm IP  distance was way too long.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by paura19

[HB_Painter]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MBot:

Thanks for documenting it with screenshots, I have been seeing exactly the same thing.

As I said we are investigating

vor 45 Minuten schrieb paura19:

@HB_Painter but I aimed on RWY.

CasmoTV set same 140 miles fot this 500,500 attack.
I will make more tracks in the evening.

I tried LAYDOWN, but my 4nm IP  distance was way too long.

 

 

 

So in your track you were aiming exactly where the pipper was, see my screenshot above. Keep in mind that its still manual bombing and it is influenced by many paramters. Also Casmo did seem to not fly TAS. As Zabu said it is important to fly True Air speed which is not the mach/speed dial visible left from the ADI but behind the Head Up Display Indicator

Edited May 28, 2024 by HB_Painter

[HB_Painter]

So I found a small bug there that caused an inaccurancy in the sight calculation will be fixed next hotfix/patch

[paura19]

@HB_Painter OK thanks.

Here is my attemps 190-195mils. Speed 500TAS +-8,  Altitude 500ft +-40
4/5 bombs were long 200-400ft

140mils 
Pretty close 2/3
F4 82snk 195 2.trk

F4 82snk 195.trk

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:07 AM, Zabuzard said:

Please make sure you fly TAS, not IAS.

I'm just curious... why wouldn't Ground Speed be the best reference?

[jojo]

16 minutes ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

I'm just curious... why wouldn't Ground Speed be the best reference?

Because you don’t have a ground speed gauge in the cockpit ?

It’s already great to have a TAS gauge on such old aircraft.

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

54 minutes ago, jojo said:

Because you don’t have a ground speed gauge in the cockpit ?

I can't get in the plane right now but the HB Manual shows a GS indicator...

EDIT: NVM, I just noticed that it's in the WSO cockpit.

Edited May 30, 2024 by II.JG1_Vonrd

[jubuttib]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:54 AM, Zabuzard said:

The bombing table tool simulates the drop using DCS ingame physics computation. It spits out the exact values that guarantee an exact hit if you fly the parameters perfectly and there is zero wind. If you do not see the drag coeff changing, that is because the change is behind the decimal resolution that the Phantom can input into its computer

Note that for the type of attack done in the video, you should be using the LAYDOWN mode, not DIRECT. Laydown was specifically made for releasing high drags from level (and low).

 

Related to this whole subject, though maybe not the thread:

I've been having quite good accuracy with slick dumb bombs, but the CBU-87s and RockEyes always stop well short of where I'm actually aiming. Feels like it's not taking into account the bomblets slowing down after the bomb opens up, is this possible? I.e. if the CBU-87 or RockEye never opened up, the bomb would land where I'm aiming, but because it opens up the bomblets fall short?

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

On 5/30/2024 at 3:48 PM, jubuttib said:

Related to this whole subject, though maybe not the thread:

I've been having quite good accuracy with slick dumb bombs, but the CBU-87s and RockEyes always stop well short of where I'm actually aiming. Feels like it's not taking into account the bomblets slowing down after the bomb opens up, is this possible? I.e. if the CBU-87 or RockEye never opened up, the bomb would land where I'm aiming, but because it opens up the bomblets fall short?

I've noticed the same. I've had some initial success with MK-20s using 132 mil. Still playing with the CBU-87s. They seem to hit shorter than the -20s.

It would be great if everyone would post their MIL settings that they find working (if they deviate from the HB Bomb Calculator) and also settings for other stuff not included in the calculator. For instance, Guns - 35 MILs.

[jubuttib]

3 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

For instance, Guns - 35 MILs.

Which guns? The wing gunpods, central gunpod and nose gun all shoot in different places.

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

29 minutes ago, jubuttib said:

Which guns? The wing gunpods, central gunpod and nose gun all shoot in different places.

Nose gun. I haven't tried the others. Do you have suggestions?

[jubuttib]

Wings were like 10, main around 35 yeah, central pod like 45.

[RichardG]

Are we getting any guns and rocket tables? I am afraid we wont. 

 

They are in the air force T.O. 1 F-4C-34-1-2 manual, but I am unable to find it published anywhere. The bomb tables in the game are from 1 F-4C-34-1-1, which is available, and says that that manual is incomplete without the other manual. (34-1-2). 

[MBot]

Heatblur, any idea how your Bombing Table will accommodate the new fuze modeling for CBUs since time/altitude setting has a huge effect on bomb trajectory?