FFB?

[dresoccer4]

just saw this was released today and got excited! However as a FFB user I want to check if FFB (trim, forces, etc) is enabled, otherwise I won't purchase as it doesn't really work well with an ffb stick. 

Anyone know the state of FFB with this module? Also are tutorials included yet? Also the screenshots on the official product page have 0 pictures of the cockpit which I find strange...is this an alpha release?

Edited June 5, 2024 by dresoccer4

[RealDCSpilot]

VPforce Rhino here and it works as expected. You can even switch off force trim with the cockpit switch and the spring forces get disabled.

Edited June 8, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[some1]

BTW, Casmo said in one of his videos, that he and most other pilots he knows always flew with force trim off. They only used force trim on the ground to prevent cyclic from flailing around.

Tutorials are in, more than a dozen. No voiceover I think, text instructions only.

[dresoccer4]

14 hours ago, some1 said:

BTW, Casmo said in one of his videos, that he and most other pilots he knows always flew with force trim off. They only used force trim on the ground to prevent cyclic from flailing around.

Tutorials are in, more than a dozen. No voiceover I think, text instructions only.

 

15 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

VPforce Rhino here and it works as expected. You can even switch of force trim with the cockpit switch and the spring forces get disabled.

 

 

perfect. thanks

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

17 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

VPforce Rhino here and it works as expected. You can even switch of force trim with the cockpit switch and the spring forces get disabled.

 

That’s great to hear: I’ve been on the waiting list for a few months now and I can’t wait to get my hands on it

[Gunfreak]

Works really well with the brunner FFB base too. Much better than on the gazelle.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

10 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Works really well with the brunner FFB base too. Much better than on the gazelle.

How is the Brunner software?

Brunner is a more established brand and the quality of finish is likely to be higher compared to VPForce but it’s also 50% more expensive

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

How is the Brunner software?

Brunner is a more established brand and the quality of finish is likely to be higher compared to VPForce but it’s also 50% more expensive

Brunner is a very compromised product, it can not give as much force as VPForce. And the defualt brunner sofware only works with DCS, MSFS and a few others, but a a year and a half ago, they released a program that lets you change the driver to direcX, which means it works on everything that uses direcX, which is most, so now it works on all flight sims, like Il2 and Cliffs over Dover etc. And if you mostly fly rotor stuff, then the actual force isn't important, since you only need enough for the force trim effect.

[Hiob]

12 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Brunner is a very compromised product, it can not give as much force as VPForce. And the defualt brunner sofware only works with DCS, MSFS and a few others, but a a year and a half ago, they released a program that lets you change the driver to direcX, which means it works on everything that uses direcX, which is most, so now it works on all flight sims, like Il2 and Cliffs over Dover etc. And if you mostly fly rotor stuff, then the actual force isn't important, since you only need enough for the force trim effect.

Granted, if maximum force is the goal, the VP Rhino is also not the top contender. That would be the FFBeast. But in my opinion the Rhino is strong enough even with a long extension. And from the three the VP has the best software and community support in my opinion.

However, you’re right of course. For helicopters, maximum force isn’t a concern anyway. Tbh, even though I like the FFB in jets like the F1 or F-4E, having realistic force trim in helicopters is the biggest plus for me.

[Gunfreak]

21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Granted, if maximum force is the goal, the VP Rhino is also not the top contender. That would be the FFBeast. But in my opinion the Rhino is strong enough even with a long extension. And from the three the VP has the best software and community support in my opinion.

However, you’re right of course. For helicopters, maximum force isn’t a concern anyway. Tbh, even though I like the FFB in jets like the F1 or F-4E, having realistic force trim in helicopters is the biggest plus for me.

Yeah, also in DCS the force feedback effects are module to module dependent, so F4(once you've set it up right, the Viggen and F14 has very good FFB effects) while the Warbirds have very limited effects, yes they are there, but they are weak and not very impressive(that other WW2 sim has far better FFB effects in their planes) 

But yeah I can't really fly Rotors with out force feedback effects any more, so the blackhawk mod is a no go for me.

[Hiob]

10 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Yeah, also in DCS the force feedback effects are module to module dependent.

That‘s the beauty of the VP software. It creates its own effects from the DCS telemetry export. You can quickly copy and paste a set of effects from one module to another and even have some that DCS doesn’t offer natively. Granted, I have no personal experience in other FFB software. Just speaking from what I could research and am experiencing right now with VP.

I think that’s my main point. When choosing a FFB device, I would take software at least as much in consideration as hardware.

[LuseKofte]

VP force is just awesome. Its own software just does what ever you want in any sim. 
If you do not like an effect , get rid of it. If you do increase it. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

58 minutes ago, Hiob said:

That‘s the beauty of the VP software. It creates its own effects from the DCS telemetry export.

Does it auto-switch based on which module you are flying, or do you have to go in the software to manually load a preset in advance?
Not that it matters a lot, but I'd like to know that in advance.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Does it auto-switch based on which module you are flying, or do you have to go in the software to manually load a preset in advance?
Not that it matters a lot, but I'd like to know that in advance.

It auto detects the module when you hop in and you can an effects profile for a group of aircraft (F-14* e.g) or for a very specific one. You can also load different hardware (stick) profiles with each. For example with different spring strength or an offset center point or artificial recentering or whatever....

The beauty is, that other than trackIR e.g. you can happily manipulate everything while you are running the game.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

5 minutes ago, Hiob said:

It auto detects the module when you hop in and you can an effects profile for a group of aircraft (F-14* e.g) or for a very specific one. You can also load different hardware (stick) profiles with each. For example with different spring strength or an offset center point or artificial recentering or whatever....

The beauty is, that other than trackIR e.g. you can happily manipulate everything while you are running the game.

That's brilliant, thank you for explaining that. I can now rest assured I haven't made a mistake pre-ordering the VPForce Rhino and that it is (or will be, rather) money well-spent  

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

That's brilliant, thank you for explaining that. I can now rest assured I haven't made a mistake pre-ordering the VPForce Rhino and that it is (or will be, rather) money well-spent  

I have a DIY (kit) one. Even though I also pre-ordered one. It has a makeshift appearance but it works very well.

And the software is flawless. When you get a little creative you can really make interesting things with it.

E.g. for a custom pedal solution, I didn't want spring force (because choppers). But I wanted a little "notch" to feel where the center is. With some curves inside the VP configurator, I was able to achieve that and tune it just right, so that I can feel it, but it doesn't get in the way of a smooth left to right transition.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Hiob

[crazysundog]

3 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

 

But yeah I can't really fly Rotors with out force feedback effects any more, so the blackhawk mod is a no go for me.

You have a Brunner stick, don't you?
I can fly the Hornet with helo ffb effects using my Brunner if I want...

[crazysundog]

6 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

How is the Brunner software?

Brunner is a more established brand and the quality of finish is likely to be higher compared to VPForce but it’s also 50% more expensive

It took me a while to figure out the Brunner software (CLS2Sim) but once I got the hang of it I really like it.  I have 2 different helo profiles; one with more 'slop' for huey, Mi8; and one that has a tight center for BS3, Apache.  I'm still undecided which one to use for KW, or I might make a new one.

I know a lot of Brunner users can't stand the software, and resort to using default DCS FFB effects, but these are very weak to me.  For example, the default DCS F14, F16, and F18 force profiles are very weak. In the brunner software I have 2 different force profiles for Hornet, one super tight profile for F16, almost like a force sensing stick but it moves about 25mm.  (F14 is still WIP, but has a decent DCS default FFB)

I used the the Microsoft FFB2 for over a decade before buying the Brunner, so to me it has more than enough power.

Edited June 7, 2024 by crazysundog

[MAXsenna]

Yeah, also in DCS the force feedback effects are module to module dependent, so F4(once you've set it up right, the Viggen and F14 has very good FFB effects) while the Warbirds have very limited effects, yes they are there, but they are weak and not very impressive(that other WW2 sim has far better FFB effects in their planes) 
But yeah I can't really fly Rotors with out force feedback effects any more, so the blackhawk mod is a no go for me.

You can sort achieve it with simFFB.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, crazysundog said:

You have a Brunner stick, don't you?
I can fly the Hornet with helo ffb effects using my Brunner if I want...

Blackhawk is a mod and as far as I know it does not have any support for FFB

[crazysundog]

Just now, Gunfreak said:

Blackhawk is a mod and as far as I know it does not have any support for FFB

I thought you said you have a Brunner stick, sorry.

If you have a Brunner stick and use the CLS2Sim software you can make any type of FFB profile for anything you are flying.  I could make a FFB profile for Combined Arms if I wanted to.

[Gunfreak]

54 minutes ago, crazysundog said:

It took me a while to figure out the Brunner software (CLS2Sim) but once I got the hang of it I really like it.  I have 2 different helo profiles; one with more 'slop' for huey, Mi8; and one that has a tight center for BS3, Apache.  I'm still undecided which one to use for KW, or I might make a new one.

I know a lot of Brunner users can't stand the software, and resort to using default DCS FFB effects, but these are very weak to me.  For example, the default DCS F14, F16, and F18 force profiles are very weak. In the brunner software I have 2 different force profiles for Hornet, one super tight profile for F16, almost like a force sensing stick but it moves about 25mm.  (F14 is still WIP, but has a decent DCS default FFB)

I used the the Microsoft FFB2 for over a decade before buying the Brunner, so to me it has more than enough power.

 

If you have super tight profile on the F16. How do you just stop it from going into(defense mode) that turns of all almost all forces. The Brunner has like 30 seconds of maximum force before it goes almost limp.

2 minutes ago, crazysundog said:

I thought you said you have a Brunner stick, sorry.

If you have a Brunner stick and use the CLS2Sim software you can make any type of FFB profile for anything you are flying.  I could make a FFB profile for Combined Arms if I wanted to.

I thought there had to be a basic support for FFB to do anything. That's why people had been waiting years for the Gazelle to get force feedback support.

If the brunner software is that powerful. I might have to give it another try.

[zerO_crash]

Brunner software alone costs €500, unless you buy a Brunner product, in which case it follows (for private use only). 
 

As someone who owns everything Brunner:

 

CLS2SIM can do anything you want. With that said, it achieves it by emulating it in the software. CLS2SIM has never been a solution wirh DCS, due to the complexity of of flight systems, autopilots and just about anything that can affect aircraft controls. DirectX-support is needed for any aircraft more modern than WWII or a Cessna. Trimming, is one of the first areas which prove the worth of two-way feedback with DirectX vs. proprietary software. Therefore, DirectX is the only way to properly do DCS with FFB.

 

I notice many mention customizability with different FFB software. Well, initially, you have to ask yourself why you fly DCS at all, and not Ace Combat. Changing individual FFB-effects, is equal to that, of altering the flight model of an aircraft to your liking. It unrealistic to start altering dampeners and forces, when IRL, the most you "might" be able to do, is to disable force trim/change general strength of forces acting on the controls (not individually). Often, getting to understand the flight control of an aircraft, leads to better understanding of the aircraft itself. I see it as the dev's job to adjust the FFB effects properly, so as to mimic the ones of the real aircraft. Many military aircraft don't even have individual adjustment  for feedback. As they say; "What you see, is what you get.".

Edited June 7, 2024 by zerO_crash

[Hiob]

Comparing individual tuning of ffb-effects to playing Ace Combat instead of simulator? Are you serious? 

[zerO_crash]

You truly grasped the essence... I am comparing altering individual FFB-effects to that of changing the properties of a FM to your liking.

 

For example, co-axial Kamovs (Ka-50 included), have a force feedback system which gives prevents the pilot from overlapping blades. As you gain horizontal speed, a resistant force will grow in strength, with the centre of it being front left cyclic (worst position) and right-pedal (also worst). You could very quickly ruin this feedback (that is, once it is modelled, as it's currently not). 
 

Other instances will be effects like tightening controls as you fly a typical fixed-wing, so as to prevent abrupt movements of the control column, possibly bending the airframe or cusing catastrophic failiure. 
 

A big part of the complexity of military aircraft, lies in the design and feedback from the control column. If you cannot see the the realationship, then I cannot help you.

 

To each their own - bad setup will cause bad habits.

Edited June 7, 2024 by zerO_crash