FM Too Easy?

[KeyserSoze62]

I was expecting struggles with flying it and tons of posts from people debating curves and settings etc. but this is the easiest DCS helo to fly out the box ever. I mapped, added a little curve to cyclic and took off. Easy steady hover.

Is it too easy?? I wonder if we are not getting a real sim experience? I know an SME has given good reviews but just wondering if it was dumbed down a bit to appeal to the masses?

 

[Jenrick]

Turn off the SCAS and see what you think.  I think the SCAS just works well (like it should), and the underlying FM is really good.

[KeyserSoze62]

Just now, Jenrick said:

Turn off the SCAS and see what you think.  I think the SCAS just works well (like it should), and the underlying FM is really good.

I'll definitely try that but the Apache has SCAS and I think lots of people would say it was a challenge to fly when released.  Maybe PolyChop just did a fantastic job with the model?  I've never flown a Kiowa so I'm just wondering.

 

[Qiou87]

2 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

I'll definitely try that but the Apache has SCAS and I think lots of people would say it was a challenge to fly when released.  Maybe PolyChop just did a fantastic job with the model?  I've never flown a Kiowa so I'm just wondering.

 

The Apache is known to still need work on the FM.

Let me get this straight: Casmo has flown the KW for years and says "yep, this is pretty much as good as it gets for helo flight models in DCS", yet you doubt based on no flight experience? Simulation doesn't mean hard especially when aircrafts are equipped with systems like SCAS.

Sometimes it is good to listen to experts instead of some misguided belief.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

25 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

Casmo has flown the KW for years and says "yep, this is pretty much as good as it gets for helo flight models in DCS", yet you doubt based on no flight experience?

[SloppyDog]

3 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

I was expecting struggles with flying it and tons of posts from people debating curves and settings etc. but this is the easiest DCS helo to fly out the box ever. I mapped, added a little curve to cyclic and took off. Easy steady hover.

Is it too easy?? I wonder if we are not getting a real sim experience? I know an SME has given good reviews but just wondering if it was dumbed down a bit to appeal to the masses?

 

Well, I was wondering the same thing. It's too easy, almost arcade like. 

But reading others answers here and watching Casmo videos, it hit that me that it may be right. After all, stabilization systems are to make things stable.

If you watch videos of real life helo operations, they are stable, pilots can put them in tight spots, can maneuver easily, can hold a hover without too much trouble. I particularly like videos of MH-60s doing VERTREP: they can hover over a load over a moving platform, transport it to another moving platform, time the load swing right, stay a few seconds over until the load is dropped and do it again. If the chopper was not stable, they would be fighting the controls all the time and not being able to do that over and over again.

And now we have two different worlds to compare: one without active stability, like the Huey, where everything vibrates and moves and shakes, but it is stable, you can hold a hover and get to speed and fly it easily. The notable problem with the Huey FM is slowing down below 40 knots where it loses a lot of lift and falls like a brick.

The other are the actively stable, like the Ka-50 and the Kiowa. The Ka-50, for instance, is very stable. I know that the coaxial rotors and the lack of a tail rotor helps a lot, but even so, its SCAS system maintain it very stable.

So, getting back to the Kiowa, it may be how a helicopter with flight stabilization should behave.

Edited June 6, 2024 by SloppyDog

[Ramsay]

9 minutes ago, SloppyDog said:

we have two different worlds to compare: one without active stability, like the Huey,

Note the Huey's mechanical Stabilizer Bar damps out oscillations with periods greater than 5 seconds and AFAIK in real life is more stable than in DCS i.e. the real Huey has active (mechanical) stabilization.

[Qiou87]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Given the avatar this sure looks like a reliable source. Are you trying to answer my point, regarding the fact that the OP has no real-life reference to evaluate if the FM feels right, with some comment from some guy on the internet?

In that case, thank you very much for such a valuable contribution to the conversation. I wonder how we could have done without it.

Edge cases are not what is discussed here, OP just said "I took off and hovered, it's easy, therefore the FM could be wrong, I question if it is a sim". 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Well, well, well, if one, like me, is not careful with the cyclic when taking off, this still can topple over to the right like the Apache does. I am no SME, I find it is just easier,  and by no means it is Jane’s, with all due respect, which is pretty good given the limitation of its time.

Edited June 6, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Hiob]

I still think, that the Mi-8 has a equally good flight model (at least), but yes - why would a helicopter especially one so heavy (relative to its power) and equipped with a SAS be inherently unstable?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, Qiou87 said:

Are you trying to answer my point

Don't take things too seriously: there's no need for snarky comebacks.
This screenshot was first shared by Casmo on his FB page, so you can probably guess why he shared it and the point he was trying to make.

 

27 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

this still can topple over to the right like the Apache does

Yes apparently that's because the ground resistance is too much, and is up to ED to fix so all helicopters can take off in a more realistic manner.

[Qiou87]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes apparently that's because the ground resistance is too much, and is up to ED to fix so all helicopters can take off in a more realistic manner.

Had a great time yesterday actually, I recovered at ground level after doing a 90° climb with pedal turn at the top (testing the edge cases ) and my OH-58D slid across the apron over more than 100m. It was laughably funny, I was spinning and sliding (because I had about 80% collective as well). When I dropped the collective the helo stopped.

Another time I tried to land with a very slight lateral drift and toppled over. My habits from the Mi-24 need to change for these skids, it seems.

So yes, definitely some stuff to iron out, part of it has to do with ED. Also had a case of the blades not impacting the ground when I was on the side (they were spinning through). But the FM, for all intents and purposes, was doing a fine job making me believe I was flying a light recon helicopter. Don't know why people always expect flying to be so damn hard especially in modern or relatively modern machinery ; with FBW, stability augmentation systems and the likes, modern stuff flies on rails or almost.

[Rifter]

1 hour ago, Qiou87 said:

Don't know why people always expect flying to be so damn hard especially in modern or relatively modern machinery

They feel cheated of their sense of success due to a pussy-like flight behavior. It scratches their masculinity. They want to be heros who master the beast.

[durka-durka]

I had to work pretty hard to crash this thing yesterday. Is it easy to fly? Yeah, which is cool because I feel like I can concentrate on having fun and doing war-like stuff. Plus, flying low through Sinai cities and Freebird kicking off in the background makes a great experience.

[LuseKofte]

I think it was easy. However choppers are dependant on a good stick and descent rudderpedals. I do not trust peoples expressed feelings about fm. In two occasions I was lucky enough to fly the civilian counterparts. In forward motion. Without any military tech. It was easy. What the pilot did when landing was not. But every move he made was within a dollar coin. 
We expect everything to be hard. But some things are not
 

[cfrag]

8 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

Is it too easy?? I wonder if we are not getting a real sim experience? I know an SME has given good reviews but just wondering if it was dumbed down a bit to appeal to the masses

Are you trolling? I wonder if we are getting the real forum experience with you, or if you are just trying out the hate engine and snare the unaware forum grazer.

... See what I did there? The cheap "I'm just asking questions" routine, completely ignoring all important pertinent points just to start controversy on your cost.

So, my point: If you have personal knowledge of the Kiowa, feel free to chime in. Acknowledging than an SME has signed off and still posting Conspiracy Theory stuff is IMHO skirting close to that depressingly low-skill "Q" territory. 

If you don't know how a real Kiowa behaves, how would you ever be able to tell the difference? Be happy and just enjoy the fact that (with stability active) and (I'm guessing) a couple of hundred hours of other helicopter time under the belt, you are surprisingly good at not crashing the Kiowa. Can't you leave it at that -- or did ham-fisted I misinterpret your conspiracy rant and it was an attempt at humble-brag? 

Edited June 6, 2024 by cfrag

[todd022]

8 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

I was expecting struggles with flying it and tons of posts from people debating curves and settings etc. but this is the easiest DCS helo to fly out the box ever. I mapped, added a little curve to cyclic and took off. Easy steady hover.

Is it too easy?? I wonder if we are not getting a real sim experience? I know an SME has given good reviews but just wondering if it was dumbed down a bit to appeal to the masses?

 

I think that's kind of the idea. Military helicopters have assists ("easy to fly") so they can focus on the mission of putting warheads on foreheads. The 58D is a highly modernized/upgraded version of the Bell 206/TH-67 if you trace it's roots. Never was supposed to be a very complicated helo to fly.  

I fly the Bell 206 and 505 professionally IRL, and I am instructor-rated. Polychop's model feels the best of any sim Bell model I've ever flown without being in a full FAA-rated sim (and in some ways, this one is still better). Caveat, I've never flown the 58D, but this thing picks up and hovering/taxiing maneuvers feel spot on for every single engine Bell helo I've flown. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

That's a nice endorsement, Todd022  

 

My first flight was with my regular fixed-wing setup, since I remember how the initial Gazelle FM felt I figured I wanted to try that first.
But today I have been flying around using my Puma and boy is this thing a joy to fly. Very controlled and precise, and I even tried my hand on some aerobatics (also crashed once because I got overconfident  ).
Coming to a hover is very easy, both in and out of ground effect. Flying circuits around the airbase (one of the exercises I do in helicopters is flying around the airbase at very low level following the painted lines on the taxiways and runway) felt natural, and I had a smile on my face every second I spent in the air  

[ARM505]

The FM feels great to me (with all of one hour in a real Robbie R22). I'll play around with the SCAS off for a bit to see how that feels.

Frankly, the only issues I've personally experienced:

- the really forgiving damage model in some respects. It's there, but...you need to work to break it. You can put your tailrotor into the ground/hangars etc.

- the ground contact model is a pain...the skids don't grip like they should IMHO, so it wants to rotate on the ground like it's on ice a little bit. Feels like should should be a bit more planted.

The textures aren't an issue in VR.

The airbags were a surprise when they popped in my face in VR though. I had no idea that was a thing!

[durka-durka]

4 minutes ago, ARM505 said:

- the ground contact model is a pain...the skids don't grip like they should IMHO, so it wants to rotate on the ground like it's on ice a little bit. Feels like should should be a bit more planted.

The airbags were a surprise when they popped in my face in VR though. I had no idea that was a thing!

My first 5min of this thing I thought I was getting blown around by the wind or by jets passing by, that's how much it moves on the ground.  ED should be looking in to that.  That said, bump the "stickiness" up and then the Kiowa can't do a sliding landing.  It's one or the other. I just hope it doesn't affect the INS alignment.  (all the more reason for ED to just get a new engine)

Imagine sim pit builders, the same ones who do DIY g-suits, getting hold of the airbag system, lol.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

19 minutes ago, ARM505 said:

the skids don't grip like they should IMHO

Your opinion is shared by SMEs, who say this is an issue with DCS in general and thus to be fixed by ED.

[Hiob]

Yeah, it is really a mess with skids and ground friction.

Sideways they feel like glued to the ground and rotational there seem to be no friction at all.

Spawn in with slightly off-centered pedals and watch it dance. Not the fault of the KW though.

[Chipwich]

Not challenging enough?  Go fly Tobsen and @Eight Ball's excellent OH-6A for a month.  You'll be begging for a little SCAS or force trim 

 

 

[KeyserSoze62]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

Are you trolling? I wonder if we are getting the real forum experience with you, or if you are just trying out the hate engine and snare the unaware forum grazer.

... See what I did there? The cheap "I'm just asking questions" routine, completely ignoring all important pertinent points just to start controversy on your cost.

So, my point: If you have personal knowledge of the Kiowa, feel free to chime in. Acknowledging than an SME has signed off and still posting Conspiracy Theory stuff is IMHO skirting close to that depressingly low-skill "Q" territory. 

If you don't know how a real Kiowa behaves, how would you ever be able to tell the difference? Be happy and just enjoy the fact that (with stability active) and (I'm guessing) a couple of hundred hours of other helicopter time under the belt, you are surprisingly good at not crashing the Kiowa. Can't you leave it at that -- or did ham-fisted I misinterpret your conspiracy rant and it was an attempt at humble-brag? 

 

Dude are you serious?  Where is the conspiracy theory? No conspiracy or brag.  I said it felt surprisingly easy to me. That is all. The SME I referred to is someone I know and have worked with one to one.  I admire and greatly appreciate all his contributions to the community but that doesn't preclude me from having my own opinion and feeling about it. No I have not flown the Kiowa in real life as I mentioned. I won't bother with any other life experience with flying its not relevant. I'm saying the FM is the easiest to start with of any other helo mod I've played in DCS to date. That's it. A simple search about any other helo mod in DCS on this forum will bring up hundreds of posts about how difficult some models were to fly on launch. This one not so much and if that means its a great and perfectly realistic model from Polychop then hallelujah and congrats to the developers.  Nothing that serious here. Thanks.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Chipwich said:

Not challenging enough?  Go fly Tobsen and @Eight Ball's excellent OH-6A for a month.  You'll be begging for a little SCAS or force trim 

 

 

I've been flying Tobsen and Eightballs OH-6 for weeks now and its terrific and very challenging. I love it. Which Is why i said again I was surprised the Kiowa was so easy.

Thanks.

[Chipwich]

1 hour ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

I've been flying Tobsen and Eightballs OH-6 for weeks now and its terrific and very challenging. I

It looks Loach v1.2 has been released and reports are that it is much more stable than v1.1.  A 600 hr MD500 pilot is giving it thumbs up on their Discord.