Buttons required to launch Chaff and flare from pilots position?

[Harley Davidson]

Good God, Why can't they have a naming convention in DCS for just Flare or Chaff dispense, instead of some obscure ramdom title like: Scrotum squeeze dispense counter buckle front seat &^%*&$$%@%$*^)(&)&^^&$&^#  ?

[Grundar]

Dispense Countermeasures. I believe it is under the Throttle section of the bindings. You will need to assign a button to it as iirc it defaults to unbound.

 

Edit: Relevant Manual section; https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/systems/defensive_systems/countermeasures.html?highlight=countermea#countermeasures

Edited June 15, 2024 by Grundar
addition of manual link

[Zabuzard]

Good God, Why can't they have a naming convention in DCS for just Flare or Chaff dispense, instead of some obscure ramdom title like: Scrotum squeeze dispense counter buckle front seat &^%*&$$%@%$*^)(&)&^^&$&^#  ?

Thank you for the feedback. The names are chosen mostly in reference to how they are called officially in the real plane. To also make it easier for anyone using the real manuals.

We can improve the name by adding (Chaff/Flare) to it. To make it easier to discover via the search function

That said, I recommend using the categories. Selecting the Countermeasures category will reveal it immediately. Similiar for other binds.

[RaisedByWolves]

Can you add scrotum squeeze too?

[=475FG= Dawger]

On 6/14/2024 at 10:08 PM, Grundar said:

Dispense Countermeasures. I believe it is under the Throttle section of the bindings. You will need to assign a button to it as iirc it defaults to unbound.

 

Edit: Relevant Manual section; https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/systems/defensive_systems/countermeasures.html?highlight=countermea#countermeasures

 

I also feel the pain of poorly thought out controls naming. Dispense Countermeasures is a great example.

It should be Countermeasures Dispense.

Why? Because in VR, looking at the alphabetized list is what you use if you don't want to remove your headset to type.

So starting a binding entry with a descriptor or function becomes a gigantic PITA.

It would be great if HB rewrote the binding names to put the relevant system name first and function and description later.

Some examples:

Right Engine Master Switch On should be Engine Master Switch, Right, On (Do you know how many bindings start with left and right on the Phantoms? Geez )

Toggle Mirrors should be Mirrors, Toggle (I would never think to look in the T's for a mirror control)

 

Edited June 16, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[Q3ark]

There is a search function, I use it all the time, it’s very useful. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Q3ark said:

There is a search function, I use it all the time, it’s very useful. 

PITA in VR, in case you missed that.

The presence of a search function doesn't excuse thoughtless naming. 

The game natively sorts alphabetically, so naming things starting with words like "Left", "Right", "Toggle", "Dispense" is the equivalent of filing employee records by first name.

[Gunfreak]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

PITA in VR, in case you missed that.

The presence of a search function doesn't excuse thoughtless naming. 

The game natively sorts alphabetically, so naming things starting with words like "Left", "Right", "Toggle", "Dispense" is the equivalent of filing employee records by first name.

While I generally agree with you. I try and set up as many control binding outside of VR. As that is far easier. Using search, the controls are easier to map etc. So with a new module or setting up an old one. I start DCS without vr. Test that axis aren't wrong and ned to be reversed etc.

[Q3ark]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

PITA in VR, in case you missed that.

No dude I didn’t miss that, I can read.

I use VR exclusively, don’t find it a problem 

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

While I generally agree with you. I try and set up as many control binding outside of VR. As that is far easier. Using search, the controls are easier to map etc. So with a new module or setting up an old one. I start DCS without vr. Test that axis aren't wrong and ned to be reversed etc.

I do the same but you always run into something. The other night I got in a jet with the mirrors off. I hadn't mapped that binding. Opened controls menu and scrolled to M. Nothing

What system are mirrors in? WTFK!

Off headset, and start typing.

Comes up Toggle Mirrors. Just plain dumb.

3 hours ago, Q3ark said:

No dude I didn’t miss that, I can read.

I use VR exclusively, don’t find it a problem 

I am very happy you don't find it a problem.

However, I am here making suggestions for future customers.

Just because you don't mind it doesn't mean HB cannot take an easy win by rearranging word order for those that don't really want to remove the VR gear to type in a search field.

[Harley Davidson]

@Zubuzard: Thank you very much!  Sorry I wasn't trying to be condescending, I am sometimes a little frustrated due to my small RAM capacity IRL.  I read the manual and found the button and actually made a bind to it.....  I still don't get flares...   Still working on it. 

Due to the fact I have double digit IQ, can some one please talk me through setting up the countermeasures like they would a 5 year old? 

 

Thanks Gents

[Grundar]

7 hours ago, Harley Davidson said:

@Zubuzard: Thank you very much!  Sorry I wasn't trying to be condescending, I am sometimes a little frustrated due to my small RAM capacity IRL.  I read the manual and found the button and actually made a bind to it.....  I still don't get flares...   Still working on it. 

Due to the fact I have double digit IQ, can some one please talk me through setting up the countermeasures like they would a 5 year old? 

 

Thanks Gents

In General:

The Phantom uses the AN/ALE- 40 Countermeasures dispenser;

1. Make sure that countermeasures are loaded on the aircraft and the that you know the amount of each (Chaff and Flares)

2. Make sure the countermeasures button you have bound also activates (moves) the button press on the corresponding throttle (as the pilot)

3. The flaps and speed brake must both be fully retracted for the dispenser to work, regardless of any other settings.

As the Pilot:

1. Find the programmer, it is located on the left hand side of the cockpit near the controls for fuel.  

2. The Flares toggle switch you will see has the option of Flares or Normal;

• If set to Flares it will ignore any programming you have done and with each press of the Countermeasures dispense button it will release one flare.  At the most very basic if you switch this to Flares and have flares loaded you will be able to release 1 Flare per press.
• In the Flares position, it will allow the Pilot to dispense flares at will, it will not prevent the WSO from releasing countermeasures nor will it alter the WSO's CCU settings.
• If set to Normal; each press of the dispense countermeasures button will follow what you have selected on the CCU (In WSO cockpit) or the Programmer (in the pilots cockpit)
• If you just want to be able to dispense flares, throw it on the Flares option and you are set.

The AN-ALE-40 Power Indicator on the panel will;

• Display an amber light for the Flares option if it is selected 
• Display a green light when the switch is set to Normal, AND any of the Chaff or Flare mode knobs are in an active position (if they are all off it won't light up - or work)
• No light if the panel is not active

3. If the toggle switch is in Normal mode you will need to utilise the programmer to set how you want to dispense the countermeasures.

Chaff and Flare options are available here and you will notice two knobs for each option.  Intervals are always measure in seconds;

• Chaff Burst;
  • The count knob gives you the option of 1,2,3,4,6 or 8 per button press
  • the interval gives the option of 0.1 - 0.4 seconds between each release chaff
• Chaff Salvo;
  • the count knob gives you the option of 1, 2, 4, 8 or C (continuous) for the number of salvos you want per button press
  • the interval is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 or R (random) seconds per salvo
• Flare Burst;
  • the count knob gives you the option of 1, 2, 4, 8 or C (continuous) amount of flares release per button press
  • the interval is 3, 4, 6, 8 or 10 seconds between salvos.

Relevant Manual Page link: https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/systems/defensive_systems/countermeasures.html?highlight=counter#chaff-and-flare-counters

Edited June 17, 2024 by Grundar

[Zabuzard]

19 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It would be great if HB rewrote the binding names to put the relevant system name first and function and description later.

I understand your point. Doing that however would then annoy all the people using the real manuals. They search the binds by the official names.

These names have been choosen very carefully and a lot of thought went into making things easy to discover. For example, we aimed at giving each bind at least two categories. One for the system it belongs to and another for the location in the plane.

That said, there are of course a few exceptions that could be named better, while still pleasing all kinds of players. Just drop the binds as you find them and we can improve them one by one

 

The "Dispense Countermeasures" and "Toggle Mirrors" binds have been improved for the next patch. Thanks.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Harley Davidson]

@Grundar:      Just want to say YOU ROCK!  thank you so much for taking the time to explain! Cheers!

[jojo]

On 6/16/2024 at 5:06 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

I also feel the pain of poorly thought out controls naming. Dispense Countermeasures is a great example.

It should be Countermeasures Dispense.

Why? Because in VR, looking at the alphabetized list is what you use if you don't want to remove your headset to type.

So starting a binding entry with a descriptor or function becomes a gigantic PITA.

It would be great if HB rewrote the binding names to put the relevant system name first and function and description later.

Some examples:

Right Engine Master Switch On should be Engine Master Switch, Right, On (Do you know how many bindings start with left and right on the Phantoms? Geez )

Toggle Mirrors should be Mirrors, Toggle (I would never think to look in the T's for a mirror control)

 

 

You can make a desktop shortcut to launch DCS in non VR mode, like so:
"F:\DCS World OpenBeta\bin-mt\DCS.exe" --force_disable_VR

 

 

[Johnny Dioxin]

Shouldn't need that. My DCS World install is set to run in VR. If I have a VR headset plugged in it does so. If I don't have one plugged in (or switched on) it starts in 2D on the monitor. The shortcut actually has the  --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR command line but it doesn't make a difference if I don't have a headset ready to go.

Used to be the case you needed to faff around, but really pleased it isn't the case any more - makes it easier when I just want to do config or admin stuff in the sim.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Johnny Dioxin

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

On 6/17/2024 at 1:13 AM, Zabuzard said:

would then annoy all the people using the real manuals

That would seem to be a small minority of players. Most don't even read the module's manual. 

Just sayin... I'm fine with the set-up for control binding as-is. Sometimes takes a bit of trial and error but I get it eventually.

[Raisuli]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:13 PM, RaisedByWolves said:

Can you add scrotum squeeze too?

I think that's part of the radalt warning system.

[Awger]

On 6/15/2024 at 2:43 AM, Harley Davidson said:

Good God, Why can't they have a naming convention in DCS for just Flare or Chaff dispense, instead of some obscure ramdom title like: Scrotum squeeze dispense counter buckle front seat &^%*&$$%@%$*^)(&)&^^&$&^#  ?

I feel you ... irks me, too ... but I can also agree (somewhat) with the rationale for the way it is, and I (like others) spend a few weeks popping in and out of VR to get a new module setup. It's just part of the "fun."

Also... we only know it sucks because we know better.... now.

Throughout history, every aircraft manufacturer has had their own way of doing things. Compare North American to Grumman in the 40s -- erveything is different... but amongst the Grummans, things were mostly the same. Maybe they put some switch in the wrong place, but at least it was in the wrong place in all their airplanes.

Same thing goes for the names of various controls... different manufacturers, different services, different names. Hell, the USAF and the USN can't even agree on what "aspect" means (AON vs AOT).

So, there's two different and conflicting imperatives at play here -- accuracy to a specific aircraft, and ease (commonality) of use in DCS.

For the average simmer, who has one stick and one throttle, they want a specific button on their throttle or stick to do the same thing on all the aircraft. Doesn't matter if it's "correct" or not, that's just how they play; because they generally play (fly) with multiple different aircraft depending on their mood. Having a specific button do three different things in five different aircraft is counterproductive to having fun. But having different switchology for every aircraft is necessary for purposes of realism because different aircraft have different systems and controls... which is where all the crazy flightsim freaks who only fly one plane and build their own pits to suit want it, because they have all the right switches in all the right places.

It certainly doesn't help that, prior to the 1970s, precious little thought was given to the human factors of plane/pilot interactions ... and the 50/60s era aircraft were so much more complex than their 40/50s era counterparts that, it seems to me, controls were just stuck in the cockpit where they seemed to fit, or were convenient for the manufacturer. There is much more commonality of switchology between an F-16 and an F-18 compared to an F-4 and an F-100 or an F-105 ... meaning that there is going to be a lot more differentiation in controls between the older aircraft than the newer ones, even before taking into account the evolution (and standardization) of plane/pilot interface.

I'll add that contemporary notions of what makes a "good" user interface have changed a lot... in my opinion, not always for the better. Yeah, there's a search function, but "just google it" is how the kids do it; us crotchety old bastards that grew up with dictionaries, the white & yellow pages, card catalogs, and Encyclopedia Britannica, know how to look things up "the right way." 

I don't know that there any way to reconcile the two, but I do believe there's some common ground to meet in the middle on.

Regarding the notion that, "that's the way it is in the manual" -- I guess that depends on which manual you're looking at. I have in front of me NAVAIR 01-245FDD-1, the NATOPS flight manual for the F-4J. "Countermeasures," "flares," and "chaff" do not appear in the index... anywhere. Is that a USN vs USAF thing? I don't know... but it doesn't matter. The point is that referencing "the" manual assumes that there is one-and-only-one manual... which is obviously not the case.... so using "the manual" as explanation for why a particular approach is correct is kinda silly... unless you're referring to Heatblur's manual, in which case you're absolutely correct, but, in that case, Heatblur could call it whatever they want, eh?

So, we're already dealing with a translation of "real world" crazy 50/60s vintage switchology to an extremely limited set of buttons and switches on our reformed / modernized throttles and sticks ... is it all that much more difficult to use a search function for a few minutes to figure out where the friggin' flare button is? Probably not ... but you're not winning any friends by making it any more difficult than it has to be... and it would be A LOT simpler if the controls were organized per common / contemporary expectation.

 

[Bubba Gump954]

Do flares just dispense slowly in this plane? 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Bubba Gump954

[Zabuzard]

9 hours ago, Bubba Gump954 said:

Do flares just dispense slowly in this plane? 
 

Not quite sure I follow.

If you set the flares to SGL and mash the Dispense button like a maniac they will dispense very fast.

Make sure though that your hardware has a minimal impulse time set that allows sending DCS the command fast. Ive seen people with hardware setups where its impossible for the software to get signals more often than twice a second.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Bubba Gump954]

@Zabuzard It does when its on single, but when you set it with the programmer does it just dispense that slowly in the F4 when the burst and sequence intervals are set to the minimum?

[Zabuzard]

@Zabuzard It does when its on single, but when you set it with the programmer does it just dispense that slowly in the F4 when the burst and sequence intervals are set to the minimum?

When you set it to launch according to a configured program it will release them based on the configured programs parameters.

Are you saying it is doing something different? If so, could you provide some details please? Cheers.