Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Aapje]

33 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, that's actually pretty cool and makes me hopeful for the future!

It's fairly typical for up-and-coming nations to ignore IP rights, since they have little IP of their own, only for that to change once they become more innovative. The US used to violate European copyright constantly in the early days...

[Hammer1-1]

3 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

...

check your reservation with VPForceBot, mine moved up to 53 days left. Walmis sure is working his ass off...

[Dogmanbird]

I reckon the next step will be developing the gimbal / pivot point so it sits as low as possible, so we can maintain current gooseneck / shaft lengths (mostly for helicopters in my case) without modifying or raising everything in our existing cockpits by 20 cm to cater for the tall mechanisms of the current ffb joystick bases. My gooseneck is 33cm carbon fibre. I wouldnt want to go back to 10cm and lose the precision.

I think it's achievable :)

[MAXsenna]

I reckon the next step will be developing the gimbal / pivot point so it sits as low as possible, so we can maintain current gooseneck / shaft lengths (mostly for helicopters in my case) without modifying or raising everything in our existing cockpits by 20 cm to cater for the tall mechanisms of the current ffb joystick bases. My gooseneck is 33cm carbon fibre. I wouldnt want to go back to 10cm and lose the precision.

I think it's achievable :)

Absolutely this!
There is a guy selling very nice metal goose necks on Ebay for around 150USD. 40cm might be a little long though.

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[Panzerlang]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, that's actually pretty cool and makes me hopeful for the future!

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I have a friend in china who deals for the super-clone watch factories there. He tells me factories do suffer raids by the authorities, staff get prison sentences and all the equipment is confiscated. They periodically raid and shut down the huge night-market close to the border with Hong Kong. I guess companies like Rolex have sufficient clout.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Panzerlang

[VirusAM]

Absolutely this!
There is a guy selling very nice metal goose necks on Ebay for around 150USD. 40cm might be a little long though.

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Can you share a link for it please, I was looking for a curved metal extension shorter than the virpil 20cm one

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[MAXsenna]

Can you share a link for it please, I was looking for a curved metal extension shorter than the virpil 20cm one

Inviato dal mio Pixel 8 Pro utilizzando Tapatalk

For sure. While this is 40cm or so. Can't really see shorter than 30cm "goose neck" ones though.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294502001765

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[Dogmanbird]

from my experience, if it's steel, this one would be far too heavy, probably even for rhino / ab9 ffb

something that size made of alloy with a 1mm wall thickness would likely be the max weight limit imo 

but i'd be very happy to be wrong and hope someone can post a vid of them being used successfully on these ffb bases

null

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dogmanbird

[MAXsenna]

from my experience, if it's steel, this one would be far too heavy, probably even for rhino / ab9 ffb
something that size made of alloy with a 1mm wall thickness would likely be the max weight limit imo 
but i'd be very happy to be wrong and hope someone can post a vid of them being used successfully on these ffb bases
null
 

Says aluminium on the page.
The Beast or the Rhino with the strongest motor option might take it.

There's a version with the grip mounted canted too.
I'm thinking about purchasing a pipe bender and a welder. Would be cool to make my own.

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[Dogmanbird]

I absolutely 100% agree with you about the welder. I taught myself to tig weld very thin aluminium. I think it's been one of the most handy skills to have for making and repairing stuff.

This person mentions the gooseneck is quite light

 

 

 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

17 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

I reckon the next step will be developing the gimbal / pivot point so it sits as low as possible, so we can maintain current gooseneck / shaft lengths (mostly for helicopters in my case) without modifying or raising everything in our existing cockpits by 20 cm to cater for the tall mechanisms of the current ffb joystick bases. My gooseneck is 33cm carbon fibre. I wouldnt want to go back to 10cm and lose the precision.

I think it's achievable 

I am looking at a 150mm goose neck, but wondering if a 3D-printed extension would last long in a FFB environment.

[Dogmanbird]

yeah I'd be keen to know how some of the stronger plastics go too. If it's anything like my ffb steering base, I think it would snap most plastics 20cm or more in length and that's with no gearing, but I think the base is about 20nm at its max. Are the rhino and moza about 9nm?

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dogmanbird

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Yes, iirc. As mentioned, I find the current Vripil 200mm is too long. As one pointed out over Discord, to fly a helicopter comfortably, the right arm should be able to rest on the thigh. Now, I am a bit too far from the stick and the palm can only go slightly over button 19 but still cannot rest the hand on thigh.

[Dogmanbird]

for choppers, it was a big advantage going from 10cm to 30+ cm and keeping all input linear and full range. How tricky is it to raise everything but the joystick on your setup?

Do you notice any cogging or sticktion or break-through force needed with very fine movements? like 1mm - 2mm micro movements? This might be the deal breaker if it's present

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dogmanbird

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

This used to be my setup in the video below, featuring my rarely shown hands, then later I remove the 200mm high box underneath and it was still too high.

 

[Dogmanbird]

I watched your video the other day. Thanks for sharing that

with the 20cm extension, does it feel like you could overpower the force from the base? Does it feel like it will rapidly return the stick to centre from the outer extremes? 

I'd love to know about the sticktion mentioned above too. it looks like it might be okay in your video

 

Thanks

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dogmanbird

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

1 hour ago, Dogmanbird said:

I watched your video the other day. Thanks for sharing that

with the 20cm extension, does it feel like you could overpower the force from the base? Does it feel like it will rapidly return the stick to centre from the outer extremes? 

I'd love to know about the sticktion mentioned above too. it looks like it might be okay in your video

 

Thanks

1. Overpowering the base? May be, but the base tends to shake most of time, especially during blade stall which happens more than I think when the chopter transiting to full flight. May be I have been using the UH-1H profile too much;

2. No, not once. It is more like shaking -- e.g. when the cannon fires, it shakes/vibrates a bit and that's it. If you mean going from one extreme back to center,not once so far;

3. What is the sticktion? I have a used wooden chopping board to hold the base in place, and I used an old A4 paper box glued to lift it up. But now I am not using it any more.

Edited December 6, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Biggus]

I'm running a 3D printed extension of roughly 200mm, not exactly a gooseneck like those alloy ones but offset rearward with a forward tilt.  I took the design by Terry Dactyl in this thread, added 100mm to the bottom and made the internal walls quite thick.  PETG, something like 60% infill with six walls.  It's ridiculously strong and coping with a Warthog on top of it perfectly fine.  Absolutely no concern with snapping.

I think I'm going to replace it with a shorter one and raise the base a bit though, as I'm not a fan of the long pitch axis travel with my current setup.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I guess since I am on a IKEA sofa, it is lower than most of game chairs out there. I have never used a 3D printed extension before so thank you for sharing. The length of the extension is not all about where the hands are holding but also how small the stick movements can archive. I find this can be a rather tricky topic.

[Dogmanbird]

re sticktion - not sure if its a real word. seems to get used by joystick enthusiasts     if making very fine short movements (1 or 2mm), does the stick actually move and register movement in the game, or does it kind of get stuck until you press harder, then it suddenly moves further than desired? The latter makes flying choppers harder and most "off the shelf" sticks (and rudders / collectives) with a damping arrangement tend to have it to a degree unless modified. Most folk flying jets etc and / or no extension probably never notice it.

I'm hoping the motor arrangement in the ffb bases overcome it due to electromagnetic damping

generally, the longer the stick, the more noticeable the sticking is but the more fine precision you have overall like you mentioned (if you can eliminate the sticking)

 

Does it feel like it will rapidly return the stick to centre from the outer extremes?  - i was wondering, with your 20cm extension, does the base have enough force to quickly return the stick to centre from being tilted all the way to one side? The reason for asking was to see how it would perform  if using it with non ffb games as a regular stick, with a heavy-ish 20cm extension attached. If it works okay with that, it might be okay with a longer lighter extension

 

Thanks

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dogmanbird

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

5 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

re sticktion - not sure if its a real word. seems to get used by joystick enthusiasts     if making very fine short movements (1 or 2mm), does the stick actually move and register movement in the game, or does it kind of get stuck until you press harder, then it suddenly moves further than desired? The latter makes flying choppers harder and most "off the shelf" sticks (and rudders / collectives) with a damping arrangement tend to have it to a degree unless modified. Most folk flying jets etc and / or no extension probably never notice it.

Slow down tiger, these are a ton of questions you are asking and, as you can see in my vid, I am absolutely no proficient helo flyer. But thanks, as you have given the idea what to do in Shake It Moza #2 video...

5 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

Does it feel like it will rapidly return the stick to centre from the outer extremes?  - i was wondering, with your 20cm extension, does the base have enough force to quickly return the stick to centre from being tilted all the way to one side? The reason for asking was to see how it would perform  if using it with non ffb games as a regular stick, with a heavy-ish 20cm extension attached. If it works okay with that, it might be okay with a longer lighter extension

 

About quick return, I think it depends on the situation, in helo, it is very rare for me to have to move the stick full range, it is more likely to happen in fixed wing. When the base started, it does move the stick to near right then to far left and back to centre, but the speed here is very moderated and slow which does not give you a good picture of the speed. I don't know how likely this happens for a plane is not a car, which the former has no oversteer nor understeer which turns the wheel to the extreme.

Depending on the profile used, the stick can have little to no force to make it upright. In this case, the stick actually is very light, even lighter than the default Warthog. So very fine movement, in theory, is possible. But in the actual play, you don't want to have it.

FYI, the F-16C profile simulates a MFSSB stick (do not confused with MSFFB which I usually do) which the stick basically stays upright (imagine a piece of wood...) and moves very little when force is applied. I am told by the Moza staff who created it that this profile could have more room for improvement, but that staff seems to have left... 

Edited December 6, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[rbz]

I have been using this MOZA AB9 base for about a month now and I like it a lot. My impression is that it is great but I wish more aircraft profiles were available. That is not what I am seeing in the comments.

I believe this is because I have never used a force feedback joystick before and am just blown away by getting the feedback (trim, shaking before stalls, etc.).

What features am I missing out on that competitors have and MOZA doesn't?

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, rbz said:

 

What features am I missing out on that competitors have and MOZA doesn't?

Overheat protection; as in a unit that doesn't reduce and/or shut off forces when the motors become too hot in a sustained hard turn in a dogfight. So far, AFAIK, only the FFBeast has motors powerful enough (35nm vs Moza and Rhino 9nm) to not overheat, though I think the new Rhino with bigger motors might also have achieved that.

[rbz]

Thank you @Panzerlang, so it sounds like I am not pulling enough g's to overheat. I usually only fly for about 45 minutes at a time.

I do have Aggressive Control Mode selected. MOZA "claims" to cut off at 40C but I haven't tested it or ever noticed it cutting off. It may have and I didn't notice.

9 newton meters is enough to tire my forearm in prolonged guns only dogfights (P-51 &F-4E). But if the force isn't realistic I would have no way of knowing.

nullI really wish there was a way we could all just go to a store to test the FFB options and just buy the best one. Maybe MOZA is fine, maybe it isn't. My best comparison is CMDT videos for FF Beast on YouTube. Compared to that proper modules appear to be about the same but Flaming Cliffs and OH-6 are not working so well for me as FFBeast is for CMDT. I suspect, as many people have said that the software is the difference. I thought that meant the Telemetry FFB wasn't possible. But I believe it is that there is no community creating profiles for the MOZA stick to bring FFB to anything but the most popular modules MOZA set up themselves.

[Dogmanbird]

13 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

these are a ton of questions you are asking

Thank you and don't panic, no need for any scientific testing and doesn't need to be helicopters, but thanks for considering 

I basically just want to know if it can behave closely to something like a VKB gunfighter / MCG ultimate grip combo, with their maximum springs installed and no extension. I'm hoping it can feel like that but while using your 20cm extension installed. If it does and it can maintain that without overheating, it might be fine to use with my longer extensions.

Even after all the youtube reviews, no one really discusses anything beyond being overwhelmed by the feeling of ffb  but maybe that's a condition moza set when the base was sent to them?