Is the apache really that bad?

[Blackhawk163]

On 7/8/2024 at 10:04 AM, Oceandar said:

For me flying the Apache is far from hard but not enjoyable. I hate it's twitchy tail. Tuned my rudder curve little is helping but still hate it. Hope it gets better with future update.
 

 

While I've gotten somewhat used to it, I think its torque modeling is overrepresented and needs to be tuned down. Also maybe program a better way to interrupt the center axis command. I'll never forget my first time triggering that. All the while saying WTF, no no no, as my nose went straight up into the air, and I lost all control over all the inputs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Glide]

On 7/2/2024 at 7:10 AM, Blackhawk163 said:

Now if only my wingman would stay alive

AI wingmen are frustrating.  I never take one.  Just put up a flight of AI AH-64D's, same flight plan, same mission, and form up with them if you want. 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Glide

[Glide]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:56 AM, audiman said:

Also if you use Altitude hold, make sure you do not move the collective at all,

I find getting to stable trim takes more than one touch of the trim controls.  It's like it takes two or even three touches of the force trim to get it stable enough for the holds.  I love the Kiowa flight model as well, but so far all I can do is race around in it.

I will add that having no doors in the KW really makes an active AO fun!  There's a lot more sound in the sim than I realized!

Edited July 10, 2024 by Glide

[shwed]

Apache flies great All axes curves are linear by default.

 

[Hootman9104]

It just takes practice and getting your curves etc. the way that works best for you.

Myself, I have the axis tunes at :

Pitch and Roll
Saturation X: 85%
Saturation Y: 100%
Curve: 17

Collective:
Saturation X: 100%
Saturation Y: 85%
Curve: 0

You might think I have the Pitch and Roll saturation backwards, but for me adjusting the X axis makes the cyclic a LOT easier, it's not as "reactive" to the inputs, sort of damps them down a bit. The Collective saturation seems to make it easier finding the sweet spot in the middle, and less "jumpy" in that 15-25% torque range (but this may be just be a false observation on my part).

If you go into Utilities and turn off all the SCAS flight assists you can tell exactly what it's doing for you. Still flyable, but really requires a lot of hands on and delicate touch.

I did 20 years as a UH-60 maintainer, crew chief, and Technical Inspector (TI) and while that system is called the AFCS (AUTOMATIC FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM) is a bit different performs the same functions. I spent a lot of time underneath a UH-60 and also looking down through the cargo hook access panel during sling load ops, and there is probably nothing more that tests your mettle than being underneath a 16,000 lb behemoth at a hover while you're hooking the load, with nothing sparing you from being squished like a grape other than the pilots ability to maintain the aircraft at a stable hover, and the SCAS/AFCS systems in both aircraft is what allows that. I watched UH-1's doing the same operations and that looked REALLY terrifying as the basic UH-1 doesn't have any of that fancy smanshy assist and REALLY relies on pilots with a steady hand.

[Rogue Trooper]

On 7/10/2024 at 2:43 PM, shwed said:

Apache flies great All axes curves are linear by default.

 

Yep, she flies real nice.

[Blackhawk163]

4 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Yep, she flies real nice.

How'd I know it would be a FFB user? 

[FlyBaby]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:43 AM, shwed said:

Apache flies great All axes curves are linear by default.

 

To me, the hesitation during the last 17 seconds of this video shows just how bad the FM is. You can tweak curves, saturation etc to help, but the problem is the FM (too twitchy pendulum etc.), and the hold modes are horrible.  It is disappointing that the FM is at this state...mid 2024 and I regret the purchase at this point. Hopefully they can fix this before 2025. SMH.

[Floyd1212]

Yes, the tail is quite active when trying to slow to a hover; I’m hoping this will be addressed in the future, along with the excessive crabbing.

But, I don’t get what people are complaining about with the hold modes. Granted, I never use them in forward flight, but they seem rock solid for me to maintain a stable hover.

If you have a little drift in any direction when you enable AT Hold, it will take one major correction to get back to the spot where you enabled hold, but then the helo stays planted for days.

Trim it out with less than 2 knots of sustained drift, and engage AT Hold. Manage the collective to get the VSI steady at 0, and engage ALT Hold. Go make a sandwich.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Floyd1212

[Rogue Trooper]

I find the sim yaw pedals good, responsive and smooth. However, i guess this could be due to the oil damping on my pedals being set quite high for all choppers. 

Yeah the crabbing is excessive.

For the hold modes:

Hover hold is great, It can hover better than me. Getting into hover mode is easy as long as you are well trimmed for hover. Indeed, it is so reliable that once activated, I am usually working the MPDs whilst the hold mode corrects and realigns to the centre of the hover hold... but for sure I am watching the BOB up box on my HMS whilst working the MPDs.

Straight line flight in hold mode is also good and reliable as long as I am travelling at or below 120 Knots (usually 110), holding Trim for 3 seconds realigns everything nicely if limits are reached. Above 120 Knots the APs are working too hard and quickly reach their limits. Holding the trim for 3 seconds to realign the sleeves can cause some undesirable effects. Above 120 Knots I fly by hand only... I am in a rush.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Rogue Trooper

[Rogue Trooper]

In the FFBeast video shown in this post, I think he flies lovely.

No Pedal problems and the video looks like a real helicopter flying and hovering in total control by a competent sim pilot.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Rogue Trooper

[av8orDave]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:29 AM, Glide said:

AI wingmen are frustrating.  I never take one.  Just put up a flight of AI AH-64D's, same flight plan, same mission, and form up with them if you want. 

 

Now, this is thinking in four dimensions. Why did I never think of this?

[Rogue Trooper]

Yup, better to let them lead. 

They still die, but they take more stuff out.

[Blackhawk163]

This is by far my favorite module of all the ones I currently have and trialed. It's all come together once I went springless with dampers on my stick, use the split throttle as a collective/power lever. Downloaded Helios and used an old 15" touch screen laptop as a glass cockpit using duet app. Fine-tuned all the curves and moved the desk mount clamp to center where it should be (a little high, but acceptable). Yeah, I'm ready to rock now.

[HR-Crumble]

After the last update does the Apache still have the well known trim and level flight issues?

I’m still seeing and hearing that the Apache constantly yaws right despite trim and is very hard to get nose-tail trim or aero trim so she flies straight.


My own experience is that it’s almost impossible to get the Apache flying straight without A crabbing or B yawing right and unable to stop that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bradmick]

There have been no changes to the fm.

[HR-Crumble]

There have been no changes to the fm.

Damn that’s a shame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[salsantana]

Brevity is not among my better skills; sorry for the long-winded comment herewith. Scanning these responses I sheepishly offer the following.......

---- "Is (the Apache) really that bad?"
In the first 10 days after I'd received my early purchase Apache, I was inching closer and closer to requesting a refund or exchange but of course there are policies; I really hated this product. However, one reply to a tech support request with a few ideas fixed everything. The tech support at Eagle Dynamics is superb.  I was at least aloft and able to use intuition to begin learning.

---- "the hover/trim modes are terrible"
I'd spent the last year (or two?) REALLY frustrated with flying this helicopter, and much more so with the weaponry. 2-3 weeks ago I stumbled upon a "Force/Trim" tutorial. Hallelujah, Hosanna, Eureka, etc. when I made a keybind for Force/Trim, things just got 200% better in the last couple weeks. I've mapped the command to a button on top of my Logitech Extreme 3D Pro flight stick. IMMENSE difference. I've NO idea to what you compare this simulator's quality and performance, but the collective control is ridiculously sensitive at certain times. Once I'm cruising along with Force/Trim, I notice the rather extreme sensitivity of the collective. Could that be the root of a problem?

---- about the attitude hold and shaking of the helicopter....... sure you're not talking about the Ka-50 Blackshark? That and the Su-25, at least in my experiences do some serious shake n rattle. One thing most of us hold in greatest regard is the accuracy of modeling..... the authenticity counts to say the least.

By the way, no criticism herewith, nor to presume anything of your skills...... but in terms of the quality of this product, really the only thing missing is the gravity . We'd be seeing a LOT of diatribes and rants, especially from airborne combat veterans. I'll bet there's a significant number of 100% actual Apache pilots, mechanics, etc. all around us...... I personally regard that as cool as it gets. And then there's the people who've never even seen an actual Apache but know at least as much as the actual veteran and current pilots.

[salsantana]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:29 AM, Glide said:

AI wingmen are frustrating.  I never take one.  Just put up a flight of AI AH-64D's, same flight plan, same mission, and form up with them if you want. 

 

Sorry if this is irrelevant but "AI wingmen are frustrating" stoked a memory of playing Battlefield 3/4 with a 4-man squad, communicating via Skype....... it's easy to forget you're not actually in a tank or helicopter with actual people sitting next to you....... one guy is constantly pointing out tangos with "he's over there..... see him??? Right over THERE!!!!!" Drove me nuts...... "over WHERE?????????"

[salsantana]

On 7/10/2024 at 11:59 PM, Hootman9104 said:

It just takes practice and getting your curves etc. the way that works best for you.

Myself, I have the axis tunes at :

Pitch and Roll
Saturation X: 85%
Saturation Y: 100%
Curve: 17

Collective:
Saturation X: 100%
Saturation Y: 85%
Curve: 0

You might think I have the Pitch and Roll saturation backwards, but for me adjusting the X axis makes the cyclic a LOT easier, it's not as "reactive" to the inputs, sort of damps them down a bit. The Collective saturation seems to make it easier finding the sweet spot in the middle, and less "jumpy" in that 15-25% torque range (but this may be just be a false observation on my part).

If you go into Utilities and turn off all the SCAS flight assists you can tell exactly what it's doing for you. Still flyable, but really requires a lot of hands on and delicate touch.

I did 20 years as a UH-60 maintainer, crew chief, and Technical Inspector (TI) and while that system is called the AFCS (AUTOMATIC FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM) is a bit different performs the same functions. I spent a lot of time underneath a UH-60 and also looking down through the cargo hook access panel during sling load ops, and there is probably nothing more that tests your mettle than being underneath a 16,000 lb behemoth at a hover while you're hooking the load, with nothing sparing you from being squished like a grape other than the pilots ability to maintain the aircraft at a stable hover, and the SCAS/AFCS systems in both aircraft is what allows that. I watched UH-1's doing the same operations and that looked REALLY terrifying as the basic UH-1 doesn't have any of that fancy smanshy assist and REALLY relies on pilots with a steady hand.

Just interjecting here...... what an enviable gig!! Growing up around the US Naval Academy on opposite shore, during the Vietnam War there was quite frequent activity of Hueys...... I couldn't get enough of that thumpathumpathumpa...... especially when there's a few of them in formation. I'm sure that was one beautiful sound to so many soldiers in that mess.

[kenbou]

What I felt was similar to turning off the hydraulic switch on a DCS Huey.
Even if you set the control input to zero or in the opposite direction,
the result of the actual input is reflected a short time later.
If you move the stick or pedals quickly,
the actual input is different from the intended amount and direction,
which makes it very difficult to control.
I noticed this when I displayed the controls indicator.

[Floyd1212]

8 hours ago, kenbou said:

If you move the stick or pedals quickly,
the actual input is different from the intended amount and direction,

If you are using Instant Trim mode, try using Center Trim mode instead.

There have been complains of Instant Trim mode not responding in the game as quickly as you are moving your physical joystick, and this problem does not exist with Center Trim mode. 

[kenbou]

2 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

If you are using Instant Trim mode, try using Center Trim mode instead.

There have been complains of Instant Trim mode not responding in the game as quickly as you are moving your physical joystick, and this problem does not exist with Center Trim mode. 

Thank you.
By using "Center Trim mode",
the slow input of the cyclic control has been eliminated.
However, the collective pitch and pedals still seem to be slow.
When there is wind from the tail rotor outlet side,
the helicopter's yaw becomes unstable,
and I respond by making small, relatively fast inputs to the pedals.
I've never flown a helicopter like the Apache,
but I also make relatively fast, small inputs to the pedals to maintain direction during lift-off or in a crosswind.

[Rongor]

On 7/14/2024 at 4:06 AM, FlyBaby said:

To me, the hesitation during the last 17 seconds of this video shows just how bad the FM is. 

Can you elaborate this comment a bit?

I watched it and can't see anything I wouldn't expect from any helo settling down.

What exactly is a hint on a bad FM in the last 17 seconds?

[mason.zh]

16 hours ago, Rongor said:

What exactly is a hint on a bad FM in the last 17 seconds?

I'm guessing the tail-twitching behavior? 

It's more like a yaw SAS issue than FM issue in my opinion. When heading mode is active and the Apache is below 40 kts, the yaw SAS would go nuts sometimes, this might introducing some twitching behavior on the tail. 

As you can see from this video, the tail starts to swing when the heading hold is engaged. I break out the heading mode by applying the left rudder just in time, otherwise, I might get a SAS statute warning.