Black Screens, Fans 100 Percent Behaviour During DCS

[nephilimborn]

NOTE: I do not believe this is a DCS defect, however this behaviour commonly occurs when in DCS

Problem

At least twice a week (at times much more - i play DCS every evening) and within the first 15minutes of a SPlayer VR DCS session the following has been occurring over the last year
- Black Screen, Fans 100 percent, hard-reset or power-cycle is the only option to restart (12VHPWR sense pin LED indicates normal signal)

History
I first encountered this issues last year with a new gaming rig however windows event viewer was reporting WHEA errors -  in response i RMA'd the 4090 which turned out to have bad capacitors.

About 3 months after installing the new 4090, i again started to encounter the same behaviour with similar frequency and symptoms. Just prior to black screen event, the Windows Event viewer reported the nebulous and useless Event ID 56 ACPI 2. I was able to eliminate this event from being reported by Windows by setting NVCPL to prefer max performance and restart (no fast start) PC prior to any DCS session.

Over the last 10months i have tried many settings to resolve or at least minimize (see below).

Currently the Windows Event Viewer reports (albeit with a timestamp nowhere near the black screen event) \Device\Video3 UCodeReset TDR occurred on GPID: 100.

What i have tried to solve or at least mitigate

Variations of this behaviour is littered en mass in forums across the internet (NVidia, Reddit, Overclock.net, etc.); as such and as expected with anything on the internet, the unstructured responses, recommendations, etc wildly vary from moronic, insulting, helpful.
There is of course no systemic solution as influencing hardware, software, OS & BIOS configuration varies materially enough that a resolution for one particular person's ecosystem does not work for others.

• Removed all useless bloatware e.g. gamebars, overlays, RGB crap software, razer trash, armoury crate toiletware, ...
• NVCleanStall 552.44 driver; Disable Telemetry, disabled NVIDIA HD Audio Device sleep timer, enable Msg Sig Interrupts (default, High Priority)
• BIOS, Disable PCIe Native Power Management & ASPM, Enable Resizeable BAR, power limits set to Intel spec for 13700K
• Windows 10: Disabled hardware accelerated GPU scheduling, Disable PCIe link Power Management, TDR delay to 15seconds, no fast start on boot
• NVCPL: Neg Load Bias Allow, Prefer Max Performance

NOTE: Have not tried the more controversial settings such as turning off C-State in BIOS

Power Supply: MSI MPG A1000G PCIE5 (12VHPWR)
GPU: ASUS TUF RTX 4090 GAMING w/ latest (23-2-22) VGA Bios. I use the anti-sag adjustable support brace (although a stupid design by asus) to help support the card and (hopefully) avoid slot contact issues that might lead to the behaviour i am experiencing.
AC Power: I don't use my UPS as it is only 900Watt, instead using a high quality monster power surge protector. Not sure how sensitive the MSI power supply is to voltage variations (while under higher than normal load) in wall power?

I do, of course, actively profile and log all relevant sensors via HWINFO and i use the Remi Mercier's FanControl (github) for all heat mgt. 

Nothing recorded is ever out of temp, voltage, etc bounds for any measured component when the black screen occurs

At my wits end with this and truly hoping i don't have to RMA my 4090 again.

Edited August 16, 2024 by nephilimborn

[Gripen 4-1]

It is not a DCS fault! Maybe your GPU cable is defective! The sense wires made problems / lost contact. Fans turned 100%, screen went black and the only way was to push the power button on the PC

Had this with a Cablemod cable. After I changed it, it never happended again.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cablemod/comments/13qhuzu/black_screen_fans_revving_up_to_100_pc_remains/?rdt=44564

 

Do you use the standard Nvidia adapter cable or another brand?

For some people this happened also with the standard adapter.

[kksnowbear]

9 hours ago, nephilimborn said:

NOTE: I do not believe this is a DCS defect, however this behaviour commonly occurs when in DCS

Problem

At least twice a week (at times much more - i play DCS every evening) and within the first 15minutes of a SPlayer VR DCS session the following has been occurring over the last year
- Black Screen, Fans 100 percent, hard-reset or power-cycle is the only option to restart (12VHPWR sense pin LED indicates normal signal)

History
I first encountered this issues last year with a new gaming rig however windows event viewer was reporting WHEA errors -  in response i RMA'd the 4090 which turned out to have bad capacitors.

About 3 months after installing the new 4090, i again started to encounter the same behaviour with similar frequency and symptoms. Just prior to black screen event, the Windows Event viewer reported the nebulous and useless Event ID 56 ACPI 2. I was able to eliminate this event from being reported by Windows by setting NVCPL to prefer max performance and restart (no fast start) PC prior to any DCS session.

Over the last 10months i have tried many settings to resolve or at least minimize (see below).

Currently the Windows Event Viewer reports (albeit with a timestamp nowhere near the black screen event) \Device\Video3 UCodeReset TDR occurred on GPID: 100.

What i have tried to solve or at least mitigate

Variations of this behaviour is littered en mass in forums across the internet (NVidia, Reddit, Overclock.net, etc.); as such and as expected with anything on the internet, the unstructured responses, recommendations, etc wildly vary from moronic, insulting, helpful.
There is of course no systemic solution as influencing hardware, software, OS & BIOS configuration varies materially enough that a resolution for one particular person's ecosystem does not work for others.

• Removed all useless bloatware e.g. gamebars, overlays, RGB crap software, razer trash, armoury crate toiletware, ...
• NVCleanStall 552.44 driver; Disable Telemetry, disabled NVIDIA HD Audio Device sleep timer, enable Msg Sig Interrupts (default, High Priority)
• BIOS, Disable PCIe Native Power Management & ASPM, Enable Resizeable BAR, power limits set to Intel spec for 13700K
• Windows 10: Disabled hardware accelerated GPU scheduling, Disable PCIe link Power Management, TDR delay to 15seconds, no fast start on boot
• NVCPL: Neg Load Bias Allow, Prefer Max Performance

NOTE: Have not tried the more controversial settings such as turning off C-State in BIOS

Power Supply: MSI MPG A1000G PCIE5 (12VHPWR)
GPU: ASUS TUF RTX 4090 GAMING w/ latest (23-2-22) VGA Bios. I use the anti-sag adjustable support brace (although a stupid design by asus) to help support the card and (hopefully) avoid slot contact issues that might lead to the behaviour i am experiencing.
AC Power: I don't use my UPS as it is only 900Watt, instead using a high quality monster power surge protector. Not sure how sensitive the MSI power supply is to voltage variations (while under higher than normal load) in wall power?

I do, of course, actively profile and log all relevant sensors via HWINFO and i use the Remi Mercier's FanControl (github) for all heat mgt. 

Nothing recorded is ever out of temp, voltage, etc bounds for any measured component when the black screen occurs

At my wits end with this and truly hoping i don't have to RMA my 4090 again.

 

Interesting. 

I noticed you didn't indicate some details about your system which might be helpful:  Who built the system?  What motherboard?  What CPU cooling? (Yes, I read the part about temps being OK, question re: cooling still applies, if you please)

You have a 1300KF, which (in this case) is unfortunate, because there's no integrated graphics adapter.  This would allow connecting a second monitor to see if it's the GPU output going away or the whole machine (FWIW I believe it's the machine, not the GPU).

Any chance you can come up with a small, 'entry level' type GPU (GT 710 etc) to use for testing?  I'd install one just to connect another monitor, to help see what's taking place.  (Note: Obviously this would depend on what motherboard you're using, hence my question above).

TBH I don't think it's the GPU - and yes, I am taking into account what you said about RMAing the first GPU (I'll gladly discuss further if you wish).

Anyhow, all this isn't intended as a 'magic fix'...it's just something you can try to help identify the issue.

Incidentally, you mention removing a bunch of bloatware (which is good)...any chance you're using Corsair software to control/monitor liquid cooling?

Also, one other question:  As far as I can see, you mention this issue occurring during DCS, but don't mention any other games or utilities.  Specifically, have you done any stress testing (i.e. for GPU/CPU) such as 3DMark etc to see if you can duplicate the issue?

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[BitMaster]

Indeed, some stress testing was nice and if you have the knowledge, install Linux and Steam with DCS and see if it reproduces in Linux as well ( DCS does work in Linux with Steam/Proton )

[SharpeXB]

I’ve had two problems with a 4090 similar to what you’re describing. The card being loose in the slot (a warning light on the MB will indicate that) solved by that brace which is very much needed for such a large card. And I had the power cable plug fail too, that fried the power connection to the card and replacing it was required. Ouch. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve had two problems with a 4090 similar to what you’re describing. The card being loose in the slot (a warning light on the MB will indicate that) solved by that brace which is very much needed for such a large card. And I had the power cable plug fail too, that fried the power connection to the card and replacing it was required. Ouch. 
Replaced the power cable with this one

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CB5HT15B?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

No.  Just...no.

In the first place, he already indicated he has a power supply that has the 12VHPWR connector, and it's almost certainly a high-quality unit.  It would be exceptionally unlikely that the cable on such a PSU is causing this.

Your unit most likely failed, as the others have, because of a cheap design, bad materials, and/or shoddy build quality - which, BTW, probably didn't change much if at all when you bought a knock-off Chinese brand...JOYJOM, really?  (The ones that all the drama is about are failing because they're bad designs made from cheap materials, almost certainly the same as the one you linked.  IIRC, your original 4090 was a cheap, low-end unit).

Moreover - and FAR MORE DANGEROUS - is recommending* replacement cables for a DIFFERENT MANUFACTURER'S power supply - modular PSU cables are *NOT* interchangeable and will absolutely destroy a computer when connected wrong because of using one brand's cable with another brand's power supply.

To prove the point, the cable you linked on Amazon says right in the description:  Corsair Power Supply ONLY.  You have a Corsair PSU, the OP does not.

Seriously, dude, stop giving advice.  You don't know what you're talking about.  This little tidbit alone could've cost someone their PC.  I know, because I've rebuilt a couple where the owner made this exact mistake, and it cost them a machine.

* even if you didn't recommend it outright, to mention it at all when you don't know the reader's level of experience is a mistake.   Anyone reading this might just as easily think, "Well, it worked for that guy"(...written on the internet, must be true...) buy it, plug it in...and poof.

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Corsair Power Supply ONLY.  You have a Corsair PSU, the OP does not.

 

I think the OP can read and determine what’s compatible. It should be obvious that was a solution to the problem for my own hardware. Link removed. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

he already indicated he has a power supply that has the 12VHPWR connector, and it's almost certainly a high-quality unit.  It would be exceptionally unlikely that the cable on such a PSU is causing this.

I dunno. This sounds exactly like what happened to me. I think mine either wasn’t fully seated or came loose when the machine was moved and/or worked on. It’s not necessarily a quality issue it’s just that it’s possible for the pins to not connect completely. Remediated by a 2x6 revision to the design. I still have a 12+4 but made sure it’s solidly seated this time.
“Some buyers of the Nvidia RTX 4090, the first GPU to use the new connector, reported that the connectors of their RTX 4090 were melting, which sparked several theories to explain it. After investigation, several sources reported that the main cause was the 12VHPWR connector not being fully seated while being put under load that resulted in overheating of the connector's pins, which in turn caused the melting of the plastic housing.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16-pin_12VHPWR_connector

[kksnowbear]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I dunno. This sounds exactly like what happened to me. I think mine either wasn’t fully seated or came loose when the machine was moved and/or worked on. It’s not necessarily a quality issue it’s just that it’s possible for the pins to not connect completely. Remediated by a 2x6 revision to the design. I still have a 12+4 but made sure it’s solidly seated this time.
“Some buyers of the Nvidia RTX 4090, the first GPU to use the new connector, reported that the connectors of their RTX 4090 were melting, which sparked several theories to explain it. After investigation, several sources reported that the main cause was the 12VHPWR connector not being fully seated while being put under load that resulted in overheating of the connector's pins, which in turn caused the melting of the plastic housing.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16-pin_12VHPWR_connector

Again you have zero idea what you're talking about. Just please stop already.

For one, we do realize that Wikipedia articles can be written and edited by almost anyone, no?  That means people just like you can write whatever. Doesn't make it an authoritative source.

To prove the point, that article was written at least in part by someone who does know their a$$ from a hole in the ground.  It says "...RTX 4090, the first GPU to use the new connector".

Bullsh*t.  I had a 3090Ti in my shop months before the 4090 came out.  It had a 12VHPWR connector. 

So the article is obviously misguided to begin with.

Second, the failures were, and still are about crappy design, poor materials, and shoddy construction.  We do understand that not all metal connector pins and plastic shells are of the same materials, no?  And not all assembled in the same fashion, no?

Cheap cards, with bad connectors and cheap cables. Like the first unit you had.  Then you bought a Chinese knock off brand from Amazon which I can assure you had some of the same flaws as before. This is your "solution".  Wow.

I don't expect you to understand any of this, because you clearly have no training or experience in these areas.  So please stop trying to sound like you do. Seriously. Paying a "PC Vendor" a ton of money for high end components (several of which wound up failing, it seems) just doesn't make you an expert.

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

For one, we do realize that Wikipedia articles can be written and edited by almost anyone, no?

You’re funny the way you engage in non falsifiable arguments If there’s any evidence that contradicts you, it must be fake…

I guess this is fake too 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/16-pin-power-connector-gets-a-much-needed-revision-meet-the-new-12v-2x6-connector

It’s a fair analysis that the 12+4 problems are a combination of design flaws and user error. A design which lends itself to user error isn’t a great design though. That’s may not be the exact problem here but it’s worth looking into. I’m not the only person this has happened to. 
My old 4090 was still performing totally fine until it wasn’t. It passed all the stress tests and was running games perfectly. So there wasn’t a clue otherwise until the screen just went black. It’s easy enough to diagnose, just look at the pins. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

Dude, give up. Just don't. I don't have time to argue with you.  All this "non falsifiable" baloney...so you're asserting that everything on Wikipedia is accurate.  I'm really laughing out loud now.

I know about the hardware. I know about the revisions. I know about the materials and construction.  I know these things because of formal education and professional  experience.

"So there wasn’t a clue otherwise until the screen just went black."

A properly qualified, skilled and educated professional could have looked at those connectors,  even when they were brand new, and told you they were problematic.  There's plenty of "clue", but it won't be meaningful if you don't have a clue.

You just finished linking a cable replacement that could have ruined someone's computer. And it's a cheap cable at that.

Then you cite a Wikipedia article obviously written by someone who clearly isn't an expert, as if it were gospel.

You obviously aren't familiar with the differences in materials and manufacturing, either.

When I point these facts out, you have no answer.  You just don't acknowledge them, and go right on to some other line of hooey.

You act like an expert because you spent a bunch of money for someone else to build an expensive computer.  That's not training or experience, and apparently the stuff they sold you wasn't all that great anyway. lol Even if it failed because it got knocked loose...who did that? Either you or your "vendor".  Or it came off because of being moved? Wow.  I ship PCs all over the country, never had a connector come loose like that.

Again, you simply have no idea how any of this works.

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

so you're asserting that everything on Wikipedia is accurate.  I'm really laughing out loud now.

I guess this is fake news too?

https://www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-faces-class-action-lawsuit-over-melting-12vhpwr-cables

5 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

It would be exceptionally unlikely that the cable on such a PSU is causing this.

You should be a witness for the defense

[kksnowbear]

The false info in the Wikipedia article you linked was glaring and obvious. But you aren't addressing that.

The cable you linked wasn't appropriate to the OP at all, and could have caused a disaster. But you aren't addressing that, either.

If your hardware failed because of what you described, then either you or your vendor caused it, plain and simple. And you're also not addressing that.

In reality, a properly trained professional could've seen the issues with the connectors in your setup, even if they were brand new. And you're not addressing that.

Every fact that shows exactly how clueless you are, you just want to ignore. 

And again here you go, clutching at yet another straw...

The last link you've posted doesn't change anything about what I've said. Apparently you're so completely oblivious that you don't even understand that, nor the actual point in the article you linked  

It will be a trick indeed if someone can prevail in a lawsuit proving Nvidia made all the connectors that failed. (Hint: They didn't). You gonna sue Nvidia because you or your vendor doesn't know how to properly plug in a connector? Because some Chinese knock off is made if subpar materials? I'm still laughing.

(BTW that article is already almost two years old lol but i guess you didnt notice that...where's this class action now?)

Simple reality is this: There are a ton of people, myself included (and the OP, I imagine) who bought actual high quality components, and therefore haven't had any problems.  Plenty of us have used even multiple products with the original 12VHPWR connector and had no issues.  Maybe more of us than those of you who can't plug a connector in properly.  Bad news for that class action, I guess.

You don't know what you're talking about.  Every time I prove your point wrong, you ignore that, run off and find another link that (still) doesn't prove anything you think it does.

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

49 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

It will be a trick indeed if someone can prevail in a lawsuit proving Nvidia made all the connectors that failed. (Hint: They didn't)

Which is funny because they still changed the cable design

[kksnowbear]

Doesn't prove anything.  Nvidia doesn't design the connector, that would be the PCI SIG - proving once again exactly how clueless you are.

(Let me save you a little time finding yet another link that doesn't say what you think it does: PCI SIG has already long since washed their hands of responsibility, too...and I'm sure you also didn't know that).  Moreover you apparently think that Nvidia has no lawyers of their own (or that they'll just fail to show up, or something...)  I am quite sure they will mount a vigorous defense.

And, as usual, you continue to evade the points I've made previously.

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

The false info in the Wikipedia article you linked was glaring and obvious. But you aren't addressing that.

The cable you linked wasn't appropriate to the OP at all, and could have caused a disaster. But you aren't addressing that, either.

If your hardware failed because of what you described, then either you or your vendor caused it, plain and simple. And you're also not addressing that.

In reality, a properly trained professional could've seen the issues with the connectors in your setup, even if they were brand new. And you're not addressing that.

Every fact that shows exactly how clueless you are, you just want to ignore. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

NVM...just not worth it.  The OP can decide if he really wants to take advice from the guy who linked a cable that could've trashed his PC (etc)

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

NVM...just not worth it.  The OP can decide if he really wants to take advice from the guy who linked a cable that could've trashed his PC (etc)

 

Only if the OP is illiterate and can’t read “ONLY for Corsair” Again that was a solution for my hardware. Not someone else’s. I would think that’s obvious. 
I’m not holding myself out as some expert, just relating my experience with what seems to be a similar issue. 

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Nvidia doesn't design the connector, that would be the PCI SIG

I did say “they” (PCI SIG) not Nvidia. The changes to the design do make sense. I don’t imagine they did that for no reason. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

Again, very obvious who hasn't a clue. I'll stick with letting the OP decide. Pretty sure he can smell the BS before he steps in it.

[BitMaster]

I stopped reading your Ego battle guys, help the OP or have a DCS dogfight like true Gentleman LoL  how about that ?!

imho you should try another OS installation or OS all together.

It could be many things, many many ways to go south. If it was my time and my job to fix it, I'd stresstest it as it is and if it fails, do the same in Linux. If it fails there too, you got a HW problem. If it doesn't it's a settings issue or driver issue, one of the many windows things.... try a new account, prefer the real administrator, end all 3rd party apps, stresstest it, if it fails again, reinstall windows and test test test along installing your apps to see when the error moves in if you havent found the culprit by then.

or

Take the card and test it in another PC or 2 that is/are known to be stable otherwise. If it fails, RMA the GPU.

 

When I had my 1080ti it sometimes caused a sudden reboot with certain drivers over the many years. It was always fixed with either a newer or older driver . if it runs 100% elsewhere and now does this it might very well be the last thing you changed, the NV driver. It happened with 1-2 drivers per year over 5 years using the 1080ti.

I know run this 7800XT and had 2 sudden reboots in a month with the latest driver, mildly gaming btw but not with the latest beta driver with AFMF support. The card was under no stress as I was driving tractors in FS22  LoL, like 30-50% GPU usage. The beta driver fixed whatever FS22 doesn't like with the current release driver. I dont care what, it's fixed and nailed.

It could well be such a thing with yours. Stresstest the card and machine to brute force a HW issue showing up. Furmark and prime95 together, it must be able to do this or you have an issue, at least for 10-15mins. ..or Aida64 Suite if you own it.

[BitMaster]

is there any chance that you have a degraded Intel 13th gen 65w+ CPU ?

When I read your specs it says 13700KF, and iirc that SKU is affected.

Try your card in another PC ( preferably NOT an affected Intel CPU as well )  but you must also stress test it in yours to be able to compare.

The way it hangs up, not a sudden reboot but a true hanger, makes me think it is not the GPU or power delivery, it's deeper.

[kksnowbear]

51 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

I stopped reading your Ego battle guys

Read whatever you wish, absolutely your choice.  Sorry if you can't see the difference in what's happening here and an "Ego battle", but it doesn't mean there is no difference.

Pretty much everything I've written here is intended to help the OP, and in fact any other readers that happen along.

If it prevents an inexperienced and unknowing user from trashing their computer with a mismatched cable, I'd say that's helpful. (And yes I've seen it happen)

 

Edited August 16, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

Don’t mind me, I’m just the proud owner of the world’s most expensive coaster. Cheers

 

[LucShep]

18 hours ago, BitMaster said:

is there any chance that you have a degraded Intel 13th gen 65w+ CPU ?

When I read your specs it says 13700KF, and iirc that SKU is affected.

Try your card in another PC ( preferably NOT an affected Intel CPU as well )  but you must also stress test it in yours to be able to compare.

The way it hangs up, not a sudden reboot but a true hanger, makes me think it is not the GPU or power delivery, it's deeper.

I was reading the OT and thinking the same, that it could be early signs of the now well known 13th/14th CPU degradation.... 


@nephilimborn have you updated your motherboard BIOS to latest version, for the new Intel microcode?  (if you haven't, you should)

 Not sure if you're willing to try something with CPU settings in your motherboard BIOS, just for a test....

If you are, then try to sync (i.e, lock) all your P-Cores, and use a manual clock value that is same for all P-Cores (5.3 GHz is the stock "all P-Core" maximum clock for i7 13700K)

Repeat testing, if it still does the same thing, go back to BIOS and reduce 100 MHz in that "all P-Core" clock (so, now to 5.2 GHz) and try again.
...repeat and so on....

If at some point the problem stops happening (by lowering the P-Cores clock), then you may have a CPU that has started to degrade, not being able to reach the stock ultra high "boost" clocks with stock voltages.  (note: do not increase the CPU Core Voltage to reach the stock boost clocks, as it just makes things worse!)

Also, you mentioned not having yet disabled C-States, which is good because you should never disable those.
What you may do, if intended, is reduce the limit of C-States (for example, to "C3" instead of "Auto" - which can go to "C10" deepest savings limit) - Intel C-States explained.

Edited August 17, 2024 by LucShep

[SharpeXB]

Lucky me I also had a failed (degraded?) 13900K. That problem presented as greatly reduced performance but not a crash or black screen. 

[kksnowbear]

2 hours ago, LucShep said:

I was reading the OT and thinking the same, that it could be early signs of the now well known 13th/14th CPU degradation.... 

My initial post, more than 24 hours ago, was trying to get to this exact point (I had the same thoughts).  The questions I asked were intended to isolate whether the CPU issues could be part of it (and can do so, given proper answers and follow up). Note I say whether, because there was no assumption on my part, just curiosity.

Unfortunately in the following hours I was distracted by legitimately dangerous suggestions; endless BS about Nvidia lawsuits; horribly cheap, poorly designed  GPUs made with substandard materials; and supposedly skilled people mishandling connectors.

Edited August 17, 2024 by kksnowbear