investigating HACQ/LHACQ/BACQ - Locking false contats, taking too long to lock a target

[Xhonas]

Hello there, as the title says, its been like this for a while. It doesn't happen everytime, so in the tracks i kept locking and unlocking the target several times to demonstrate the issue. In several instances, the radar gets stuck in a "ghost" contact, failing to achieve a lock in the correct target, despite being in perfect conditions to do so. Also, there are some instances that the radar takes a very long time to lock, even against cooperative targets (non maneuvering, high closure rate, high altitude, look up situation).

This problem happens in other ACM modes too, and is also happening in TWS/RWS. 

Helmet mode inconsistency 2.trkHelmet mode very long time to lock3.trkHelmet mode inconsistency 3.trk

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Xhonas

Could this be a situation where bump acquisition is preventing another consecutive lock? 

[Xhonas]

4 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hello @Xhonas

Could this be a situation where bump acquisition is preventing another consecutive lock? 

Hi, it doesn't seems like it. Perhaps both of the issues described here are related to the ones reported on the threads linked below.

 

[Leva80]

I can also attest to this. Locking up/keeping lock on targets has become harder in the hornet lately accross the board in all modes regardless of aspect angle. Especially frustrating trying to use the hmd to lock up and get a follow up shot when a target gets close after defeating first posturing missile. Seems to be the case after the latest major update. 

[Lord Vader]

Roger, @Xhonas

We'll look into the other items, then. When we fix those we'll look into this one again and check if it is fixed.

[TheFreshPrince]

In a dogfight chase sometimes it works to lock up the target in front, sometimes you get a lock but it's nowhere near the actual plane (single player, so no desync issue) and creates a false target, but sometimes it doesn't work at all. Pretty annoying. 

[Tblue282]

I have experienced the same thing when coming back and dogfighting the Hornet.   Will just drop lock often with the bandit just 3 miles in front of me and nothing else but clear sky around, locking targets with Jhmcs and the diamond isn’t over the target.   I was confused at first but after a month off and on I keep experiencing the same thing.  

Edited September 18, 2024 by Tblue282

[wheeliewheels]

On 8/21/2024 at 11:56 PM, Lord Vader said:

Roger, @Xhonas

We'll look into the other items, then. When we fix those we'll look into this one again and check if it is fixed.

Hey Vader, looks like next patch doesn't address the radar issues, judging from the patch notes? Can you confirm?

[Lord Vader]

Hey @wheeliewheels

Work is still ongoing. But rest assured it's being addressed. 

[TheFreshPrince]

I noticed this also happens in WACQ a lot. So a fix is urgently needed. Right now it's really hard to fight with the F-18 as it keeps dropping locks, doesn't lock bandits at all, creates false locks, etc. See attached trackfile.

 

radarbugs.trk

[Xhonas]

This happens with all F/A-18 ACM modes. I thought i might add some trackfiles for comparison in this report since the F/A-18 ACM modes always worked different than other modules in DCS ever since i can remember. It always took a little bit longer to lock (but of course, not as long as it is right now, it is clearly a bug). So here are three trackfiles showing the behavior and time to lock of ACM modes across different modules.

F-16C

F16 ACM MODE TIME TO ACHIEVE LOCK.trk Notice how fast it acquires a lock with the helmet acquisition mode. I dont even need to hover the aiming circle over the target, a fast sweep over it is enough for the radar to pick it up and lock.

F-15E

F15E ACM MODE TIME TO ACHIEVE LOCK.trk See how fast it locks the targets using the boresight mode (small circle) and the super search mode (wider circle). Boresight is the F/A-18 equivalent of BACQ/HACQ. It is able to acquire a lock as fast as the F-16. Super search takes a little bit more time because it covers a larger volume. It still locks very fast.

M2000C

M2K ACM MODE TIME TO ACHIEVE LOCK.trk Is able to lock the target as fast as the F-15E and F-16C. 

 

@Lord Vader Hi, if you could please take a look in these trackfiles, this is the behavior we are expecting from ACM modes when the F/A-18 radar is fixed. Thanks.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Xhonas

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Xhonas

Thanks for the tracks.

However, you must realise we cannot model a system comparing it with other aircraft, much less other simulated modules. I understand the comparison serves to show the speed at which such systems "usually" work but we need to model the aircraft according to its appropriate public evidence and/or documentation.
We are aware the F/A-18C does need some revision in various areas of the radar logic and, like I stated before, this is being worked on. 

[falcon_120]

Hey @wheeliewheels
Work is still ongoing. But rest assured it's being addressed. 

Is the work on Radar issues include STT logic changes @Lord Vader? For some reson the hornet radar implementation takes between 2 to 5 seconds to get a STT track from a RWS when doing a SCS right over a brick or track. All other modules including the F16 can get almost instant STT locks. Its really nerve-wracking waiting to get that lock when you are in a hurry.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Lord Vader]

Hey @falcon_120

There are a lot of tweaks and improvements undergoing. We understand some aspects of the radar simulation need them and I assure you we are working hard to bring these adjustments in future updates. Needless to say this is a very complex item and it needs to be correctly implemented. 

[Blueleader]

Hello,

I confirm the issues mentioned above regarding the F18 radar. The radar was working correctly so why downgrade it!? You indicate that we must wait for future updates because you want it to be implemented correctly; it would have been good if this were also the case before downgrading it. It is frustrating to currently fly in F18, which is why it would be appreciated if you could put the previous version back in place during the next update; while you finalize the desired modifications.

[Muchocracker]

2 hours ago, Blueleader said:

Hello,

I confirm the issues mentioned above regarding the F18 radar. The radar was working correctly so why downgrade it!? You indicate that we must wait for future updates because you want it to be implemented correctly; it would have been good if this were also the case before downgrading it. It is frustrating to currently fly in F18, which is why it would be appreciated if you could put the previous version back in place during the next update; while you finalize the desired modifications.

they're not "downgrades" guy. Idk why you're claiming that. There are updates to the simulation to upgrade the fidelity, and there are issues created along the way doing it. 

[Blueleader]

The translation may not be the best but ultimately the expected result is not good. Given Vader's comments it would have been better to wait before implementing this new radar modification which is not satisfactory for me, especially compared to other devices (F16 for example)

[falcon_120]

In general, i'm quite happy with the hornet, its my most used module so there's that caveat as i've learned to operate it very efficiently and i can workaround any known issues, so definitely not really complaining. I'm aware as new changes are introduced there is always the chance to introduce some bug, like the current HACQ/LHACQ glitch where you might loose the lock if you maneuver while using it, and that's fine, you can work around that if you're mindful of it.

My previous remarks regarding the long time to transition to STT was rather a question, even though i made it like a statement, sorry about that. I remember than from very long ago the hornet radar simulation in DCS have always had this long transition period to STT, where the  radar seems to do a sort of miniraster around the target, taking to get a solid lock between 2 to up to 5/6 seconds in my experience in some circumstances. This might be actually not a bug but a realistic implementation, and this is what i don't know and i've asked in the past. We could very well be in a situation of a poorly implementation of other modules, and very realistic implementation in the hornet. I have never seen a Apg73 radar tape going from a RWS to a STT or from a TWS to a STT lock to compare and say for certain whether this needs to be looked at, or its totally fine like it is now. 

Just wanted to clarify my previous post. Thanks.

Regards,

BONUS REQUEST: Anyone have a non restricted clip of the apg73 radar? I've always be curious to see it (i've seen plenty of the F16/F15) but none of the APG73.

 

Edited October 15, 2024 by falcon_120

[Tomcat388th]

@Lord Vader I just wanted to add to this and I could be doing something wrong so please correct me if that is the case.  I used 2 bombers at roughly 38 mile in an orbit.  If i goto lhacq while looking at them through the Hud no radar lock if I go back to rws or tws i get a return or a lock within 2 sweeps.  With no locks while there in the hud and lhacq and I manuever to get them off to one side off of the hud glass i will eventually get a lock. trac file attached

J

hmd.trk

[Lord Vader]

Thanks for the track @Tomcat388thwe'll have a look.

But currently, all I can ask is that you guys wait for the future updates we're working on and try again. A lot of logics are being tuned right now.

[TheFreshPrince]

In a first test this seems to be fixed, maybe someone can confirm. Thank you

[Ogata_Rina]

Yes ACM lock is much, much quicker now. Bump rejection and then return to OG contact seems to work as intended as well.

[Xhonas]

Tested it and it is definitely fixed. So satisfactory to use it right now. Thanks! 

[falcon_120]

Overall its the best status the F18 radar have been since i remember. Well done ED and tester that have made this possible!!

The only strange thing I've notice is that now in TWS auto with no L&S (no tracks whatsoever), you cannot adjust radar elevation, you need to be on BIAS 1st. Not saying this is not correct as is but previously TWS allowed radar elevation changes until you had a L&S track.

Keep up the good work!

Regards,

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Blackfyre]

1 hour ago, falcon_120 said:

The only strange thing I've notice is that now in TWS auto with no L&S (no tracks whatsoever), you cannot adjust radar elevation, you need to be on BIAS 1st. Not saying this is not correct as is but previously TWS allowed radar elevation changes until you had a L&S track.

IIRC, it always has been this way.