Fulcrum small target detection

[Gierasimov]

Hello ladies and gents!

There are lot of stories going around regarding Fulcrums interceptions of cruise missiles / drones. 

I understand that there should be no problem in the infrared spectrum, but how about radar?

Is Fulcrum radar capable to detect small targets such as a drone or cruise missile? 

With Hornet we can easily intercept Silkworm missile and R-77 even (not checked if still possible). 

Should we expect the new Fulcrum being able to detect and lock on with it's radar on things such as cruise missiles and drones (available in DCS) ?

[Gierasimov]

The MiG-29 Fulcrum, introduced in the 1980s, was equipped with the N019 Phazotron pulse-Doppler radar. This radar had a detection range of approximately 70 kilometers (about 43 miles) for fighter-sized targets. It could track up to 10 targets simultaneously and engage one or two of them.

What about Warsaw Pact exports of 9.12A?

Given these capabilities, the MiG-29 could detect larger cruise missiles and drones, especially those with significant radar cross-sections. For example:

1. cruise missiles - could likely detect larger cruise missiles such as the AGM-86 ALCM (Air-Launched Cruise Missile) or the Soviet Kh-55, which have radar cross-sections similar to that of a small aircraft.
2. Larger drones like the MQ-1 Predator or the Soviet Tu-141 Strizh, which have relatively larger radar cross-sections, would also be detectable by the MiG-29's radar.

However, smaller and stealthier drones or cruise missiles with reduced radar cross-sections might be more challenging to detect, especially at longer ranges.

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

Should we expect the new Fulcrum being able to detect and lock on with it's radar on things such as cruise missiles and drones (available in DCS) ?

Of course. The radar equation and physics works the same for all radars. It's only the matter of reliability, distance and RCS of the object. In DCS some smaller objects (like a shell) may not be even counted as detectable due to the simplicity but if any other radar can detect it, the others should too, just with different parameters due to different type, power, antenna size and signal processing units.

[AeriaGloria]

Works great. Just depends how close you need to get 

[marmor]

It should, if its able to detect it and lock it.

For a 3m² target.

On HPRF detection range is ~70km in a high alt-look up geometry.  

If its flying at lower altitudes (sub 3km) and its still a look up scenario, ~64km

If its flying at low altitudes and its a look down scenario, it falls down to ~40km.

MPRF( much lower ranges so ill not put them)

Tracking ranges are stated to be achieved at 70% of the maximum detection range.

 

If a lock is achieved the pilot can select the time( thus range to target) the R27R/ER switches from Radio Correction to SAHR. The seeker head must be able to see the target if you don't want it wasted. The seeker head detects the 3m² target at 25km, this is "your average fighter" sized target. 

Quote

Разрешенные дальности захвата РГС составляют: при пуске по бомбардировщикам — 40 км, по истребителям — 25 км, по крылатым ракетам — 12 км. Тип атакуемой цели устанавливается летчиком вручную по информации с НАСУ с помощью рукоятки БАЗА (Б, С или М).

Quote

The permitted acquisition ranges of the radar guidance system are: when launched at bombers - 40 km, at fighters - 25 km, at cruise missiles - 12 km. The type of the attacked target is set manually by the pilot based on information from the NASU using the BASE (B, S or M) handle.

If you do the math RCS corresponds to 20m² for bombers( which corresponds for a bomber size target on the Mig 25 manual), 25m² for fighters and 0.16m² cruise missiles

Quote

Для обеспечения заданной вероятности поражения цели в различных условиях максимальная разрешенная дальность пуска ракеты в ППС, вычисляемая в БЦВМ РЛПК, ограничена до 90, 70 и 30 км соответственно для большой, средней и малой цели.

Quote

To ensure a given probability of hitting a target under various conditions, the maximum permitted missile launch range in the PPS, calculated in the RLPK on-board computer, is limited to 90, 70 and 30 km, respectively, for a large, medium and small target.

So yes it can, you just need to detect it and lock it.

[AeriaGloria]

19 hours ago, marmor said:

It should, if its able to detect it and lock it.

For a 3m² target.

On HPRF detection range is ~70km in a high alt-look up geometry.  

If its flying at lower altitudes (sub 3km) and its still a look up scenario, ~64km

If its flying at low altitudes and its a look down scenario, it falls down to ~40km.

MPRF( much lower ranges so ill not put them)

Tracking ranges are stated to be achieved at 70% of the maximum detection range.

 

If a lock is achieved the pilot can select the time( thus range to target) the R27R/ER switches from Radio Correction to SAHR. The seeker head must be able to see the target if you don't want it wasted. The seeker head detects the 3m² target at 25km, this is "your average fighter" sized target. 

If you do the math RCS corresponds to 20m² for bombers( which corresponds for a bomber size target on the Mig 25 manual), 25m² for fighters and 0.16m² cruise missiles

So yes it can, you just need to detect it and lock it.

What is this about changing radio correction to SAHR and not firing before seeker lock. The whole process is automatic, fire beyond seeker range and radio correction automatically occurs with change to SAHR depending on target size and altitude 

[marmor]

On 10/17/2024 at 2:36 PM, AeriaGloria said:

What is this about changing radio correction to SAHR and not firing before seeker lock

It's just the transition from either Radio Correction or INS to SAHR during missile flight. 

Yeah the process is automatic, but it WON'T switch at a range when it sees the target. It will switch when it reaches (just under so it sees the target)either 40km, 25km, 12km, by a command given by the radar to do it after x amount of time after launch. Those ranges depend on the what the pilot selected here.

On 10/16/2024 at 7:07 PM, marmor said:

The type of the attacked target is set manually by the pilot based on information from the NASU using the BASE (B, S or M) handle

Should be this switch on the weapons console

As for Altitude. 

If H/M PRF and target is above 1km alt, the missile will transition to SAHR at the distances above. If target is under 1 km, and MPRF the previous transition ranges are reduced to 5km, 3.125km, 1.5km respectively. 1/8ths of the previous ranges

[bies]

One important thing to add: Fulcrum detection ranges are most often cited for a mode in which radar is being steered for the ground/GCI.

If pilot uses Fulcrum's radar independently, by himself, steering it manually, detection ranges are significanly smaller.

But i hope such details will be really well modeled in full fidelity module, as FC3 Fulcrum omitted them completely.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

30 minutes ago, bies said:

But i hope such details will be really well modeled in full fidelity module, as FC3 Fulcrum omitted them completely.

Personally I hope the AI of all things gets improved in that regard. I have been asking for that for years: no look-down for aircraft that didn't have look-down radars, realistic detection ranges/times, ...
I did a test a while ago: me in an F-16 and a friend in the FC3 MiG-29. We made things as fair as possible: we agreed to start co-altitude and nose-on, as the objective was to compare detection ranges, and I had him locked up with an AIM120 in the air long before I even appeared on his radar (and he knew perfectly well where to look from the onset of the test).

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I did a test a while ago: me in an F-16 and a friend in the FC3 MiG-29.

Different radars, different RCS, what were you two expecting?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

43 minutes ago, draconus said:

Different radars, different RCS, what were you two expecting?

You obviously completely missed the point.

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, bies said:

One important thing to add: Fulcrum detection ranges are most often cited for a mode in which radar is being steered for the ground/GCI.

If pilot uses Fulcrum's radar independently, by himself, steering it manually, detection ranges are significanly smaller.

But i hope such details will be really well modeled in full fidelity module, as FC3 Fulcrum omitted them completely.

I have never seen this. Radar is being automatically steered but detection is the same. Is there a reference manual I can read for this or something? 

[Seaeagle]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

I have never seen this. Radar is being automatically steered but detection is the same. Is there a reference manual I can read for this or something? 

Yeah it sounds odd to me too. The only difference I have come across has to do with detection being faster - i.e. when under GCI control, the radar scans a in more narrow sector, because the general location of the target has already been established by GCI and the onboard radar cued to look in that direction prior to activation. 

[bies]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

I have never seen this. Radar is being automatically steered but detection is the same. Is there a reference manual I can read for this or something? 

I will ask if i'm allowed to share.

6 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Personally I hope the AI of all things gets improved in that regard. I have been asking for that for years: no look-down for aircraft that didn't have look-down radars, realistic detection ranges/times, ...
I did a test a while ago: me in an F-16 and a friend in the FC3 MiG-29. We made things as fair as possible: we agreed to start co-altitude and nose-on, as the objective was to compare detection ranges, and I had him locked up with an AIM120 in the air long before I even appeared on his radar (and he knew perfectly well where to look from the onset of the test).

What does it mean? What is the point here?

[AeriaGloria]

45 minutes ago, Seaeagle said:

Yeah it sounds odd to me too. The only difference I have come across has to do with detection being faster - i.e. when under GCI control, the radar scans a in more narrow sector, because the general location of the target has already been established by GCI and the onboard radar cued to look in that direction prior to activation. 

Aw, makes sense. Since guidance uses a 6 bar scan instead of 4 bar, and also tighter bar spacing and less azimuth coverage the farther target is, leading to even faster scan cycle then 4 bar normal scan, would mean picking up the target earlier. I see now thank you 

[Gierasimov]

15 hours ago, bies said:

I will ask if i'm allowed to share.

 

Did you ask?

[draconus]

14 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

would mean picking up the target earlier

Makes sense that for fast closing target it'll result in farther detection but technically does not mean it's farther detection range.

[Seaeagle]

17 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Aw, makes sense. Since guidance uses a 6 bar scan instead of 4 bar, and also tighter bar spacing and less azimuth coverage the farther target is, leading to even faster scan cycle then 4 bar normal scan, would mean picking up the target earlier. I see now thank you 

Yeah so I guess it would  be a case of practical ability to exploit maximum detection range better when under GCI, rather than there being any technical diffferene in mean detection range, since this is down to general radar specs(antenna size, output power, PRF) and target parameters RCS, aspect), which remain the same.

 

3 hours ago, draconus said:

Makes sense that for fast closing target it'll result in farther detection but technically does not mean it's farther detection range.

My thoughts exactly.