Armour Piercing Cannon? Really?

[Like A Wasp But With Guns]

Hi,

 

I was frustrated by the ineffectiveness of the cannon against armoured targets, so I did a little test. I lined up loads of armoured vehicles and shot them, to see what happened.

 

Against anything less than a MBT, both HE and AP shells worked fine. I could have sworn that HE was slightly more effective, but perhaps that's just me.

 

Anyway, against a MBT, both types were spectacularly useless. I pumped rounds into just about every MBT, and didn't do anything.

 

Has anyone noticed anything similar? Or, I am doing something wrong? This was at close range, from all sides... can't think what would stop it working.

 

If I am right, surely this is a bit of a flaw, either from the game's or the military's perspective? I would imagine the real thing might do a little damage. At least rip the track off or something. Or maybe I'm expecting too much.

 

Any thoughts?

[Feuerfalke]

That's actually quite accurate.

 

 

The gun (2A42) is the same that is mounted on Russian APCs and helos. It's designed to be used against lightly armored vehicles and infantry. It's not suited to penetrate the armor of MBTs. That is infact, why most APCs are fitted with anti-tank-rockets to at least have a little chance against MBTs.

 

In the game, you can with luck destroy a tank from rather short range firing at the back or top of the tank, but especially the front too thick for the gun. IIRC somebody did some tests with it and finally managed to kill a tank with almost a full mag of AP rounds.

 

But just because it has the same caliber as the GAU-8 of the A-10 does not mean it has the same energy, as cartridge and barrel length, muzzle velocity and cinetic energy are very different.

 

 

Now, that HE has a better result on APCs than AP, is probably not intended. But this was reported several times, as most of the time a single HE-hit is enough to explode a BRDM or Bradley.

[Razorback69]

It's the same for me : against light amoured vehicles (BMP-2, Stryker, Bradley,...) HE is more effective than AP with BS (Not in real, HE is used against non armoured vehicle, infantry,etc...)

 

Forget the gun against MBT, not effective.

Of course in reality you can damage a MBT with a 30mm gun an with a lot of hit you can destroy it but you will lost a lot of ammo for a limited result.

[McVittees]

I have had some success against M1s by attacking their roof armour. 'Some' success because they'd been hit by a Vikhr first (one is never enough do destroy an Abrahams) followed up by a 30mm pounding from high above (my cannon barrel was at maximum depression). I don't think I've ever mangaged to destroy an undamaged M1 with cannon fire alone.

 

AP rounds are pants. Fire if your bored, out of HE or just like pretty green tracers!

[Mugenjin]

Is it in reality common procedure to use a 30mm cannon against MBTs? Perhaps apart from rear or top armor (and I don't even know about that particularly) is it even possible that 30mm rounds can penetrate the front armor? Dunno bout that, honest question.

[sobek]

Is it in reality common procedure to use a 30mm cannon against MBTs? Perhaps apart from rear or top armor (and I don't even know about that particularly) is it even possible that 30mm rounds can penetrate the front armor? Dunno bout that, honest question.

 

I would say no, especially because once you get to ranges where the 30mm rounds could do a little damage, you are well inside the tanks main gun firing range. The 30mm round of the 2A42 cannon is certainly useful against APCs and softer targets but definately not intended to be used against a MBT. You'd be crazy to engage a M1 with that gun in RL.

[Fehn]

If you guys said so, then what a purpose for AP rounds in dcs. cuz i found it useless. lol

[BOSS330]

If you guys said so, then what a purpose for AP rounds in dcs. cuz i found it useless. lol

 

I believe the game is trying the model the fact that AP rounds rely on their kinetic energy to do maximum damage while the HE will be effective at it's maximum range because of it's warhead. Surprisingly, both types of ammo have a muzzle velocity of 1000m/s.

 

I have tested this out in the game, firing at a Bradley at 3km+ with AP rounds did very little damage (took over 50 rounds to kill it). Tried hitting them at inside 2km and 5-6 direct hits was enough to cause secondaries.

 

Just doing some research on the various 30mm guns, seems the 2A42 fires 30x165mm rounds which are nearly the same length as the A-10's ammo! (30x173mm).

 

The Apache's M230 fire's a much shorter 30x113mm round which is the reason for it's relatively low 808m/s muzzle velocity.

 

As for the 30mm gun's effectiveness on MBT's, it's just not worth the hassle in my opinion.

[slowhand]

hey guys,just the other nite on a sortie w/ my wingman we both were cleaning up the area of trgts when we both found an M1a1 MBT we both had only guns left..i perched on the left and my wing setup on the rt about 2 clks out and we both went to town unloading on tht bad boy.. both w/he rounds needless to say w 04 (40)rounds left in my bird and my buddy calling winchester...i dumped the last of my rounds in to the tank..and that was all she wrote...the tank blew up...i got the kill on guns.. this was my 1st MBT kill with the gun...it took both mags from both birds..not sure how many rounds my wingie put in his a$$... but it can be done..

[McVittees]

In reality, although you probably couldn't blow up a MBT with the KA-50s 30mm, you could do all kinda damage to the optics, weapons, tracks, engine compartment etc rendering the tank virtaully combat ineffective.

[Boberro]

In reality, although you probably couldn't blow up a MBT with the KA-50s 30mm, you could do all kinda damage to the optics, weapons, tracks, engine compartment etc rendering the tank virtaully combat ineffective.

 

Yes, exactly. But in DCS is not available now.

[GGTharos]

... is that before or after it returns the favor with 120mm? :D

 

In reality, although you probably couldn't blow up a MBT with the KA-50s 30mm, you could do all kinda damage to the optics, weapons, tracks, engine compartment etc rendering the tank virtaully combat ineffective.

[McVittees]

... is that before or after it returns the favor with 120mm? :D

 

I think you know the answer to that one! :megalol:

[Feuerfalke]

... is that before or after it returns the favor with 120mm? :D

 

:D

 

Not even mentioning, that you only have the second shot, if you want to close in and damage a tank with your guns. The accuracy and lethalty of that 120mm smoothbore will make a good impression of the damage-model of your own helo, before you get into range to scratch the paint of that tank.

[Kuro6]

:D

 

Not even mentioning, that you only have the second shot, if you want to close in and damage a tank with your guns. The accuracy and lethalty of that 120mm smoothbore will make a good impression of the damage-model of your own helo, before you get into range to scratch the paint of that tank.

 

Not too mention, the M1A1 carries this -

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m830a1.htm

 

Stay far and fast from M1s.

[Obiwan]

Has anyone done any comparison between HE and AP rounds against enemy choppers? I tend to use HE for light armor, trucks and MANPADS, and AP for artillery and APCs. However, I haven't found a "favorite" bullet yet for helicopters. My first guess would be to use AP first for aircraft.

[Feuerfalke]

Has anyone done any comparison between HE and AP rounds against enemy choppers? I tend to use HE for light armor, trucks and MANPADS, and AP for artillery and APCs. However, I haven't found a "favorite" bullet yet for helicopters. My first guess would be to use AP first for aircraft.

 

I didn't do any deliberate tests, but to my personal experience in Ka-50 vs Ka-50 I get a faster kill with HE, too. With AP, you can take the helo apart bit by bit, but with HE a few hits usually are enough to do fatal damage to the rotors or to kill the pilot. Using HE, you get a PK 8 of 10 times.

 

Again: To my personal experience in actual combat. Didn't find a volunteer, who was willing to test that with me, yet ;)

[EvilBivol-1]

The HE rounds have been adjusted for the 1.0.1 patch.

[Feuerfalke]

The HE rounds have been adjusted for the 1.0.1 patch.

 

That's good news. Thanks for the info!

 

Looking forward to do some dogfighting with the 101 patch! :thumbup:

[BaD CrC]

Well, good news, I don't know. Does this means that HE will be less effective? I wish the AP rounds will be made more effective against armored vehicles in the future patch.

[Valtyr]

Remember the 30mm on the A10 fires depleted uranium rounds as well

[Golgotha]

As an ex-Scimitar [CVR-T] Gunner, firing the 30mm Rarden cannon in the late 1970's, before 'discarding sabot' rounds were developed, the only time when one would have used it against an MBT, would have been in desperation and even then mainly against the rear of the engine decks. However if any lucky bursts had managed to take out the Gunners or Commanders sights, it would have allowed the chance to escape. The weapon would however been excellent against vehicles like the BMP, BRDM, BTR and other light soft-skinned vehicles like trucks and jeep type transport. It was also to be used against helicopters at a push.

 

30mm against a modern MBT, the best option is to not be seen, or to run like hell.

 

John

[Golgotha]

Well, good news, I don't know. Does this means that HE will be less effective? I wish the AP rounds will be made more effective against armored vehicles in the future patch.

 

One of the things about AP rounds is that they can just punch neat holes through the target, which unless you hit something flammable, does not really give the best effect. In my experience using the 30mm Rarden, the best AP round to use, in many cases was the Armour Piercing Secondary Effect [APSE] round, which contained a secondary part, like phosphorus, that was designed to destroy things. The humble HE round, was useful against a great many targets though as the effect of being hit, caused severe damage or destroyed appropriate targets.

 

John