not planned Nukes, Please....

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

We will likely never see them in DCS due to that level of classification.

I think it's fair to say we'll probably never get to use them, but this is less of a factor for AI-deployed weapons. Those do not need extensive modeling of classified systems, and the physics behind a nuclear weapon are well known.

Performance is a real issue, though, but perhaps it just means it requires a custom solution. The standard system for destroying buildings is inadequate for WMDs, and I suspect we'll see some of those issues crop up for MOAB or the Daisy Cutter, as well. Dropping them in an built-up area could trigger server crashes by itself. They would also require the ability to render a mushroom cloud (though a small, dusty one), seeing as both weapons produce one.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[Beirut]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I would like the discussion to focus on actual issues that stand in the way of implementing nuclear weapons . . . 

 

The FPS hit is the only real issue.

 

 

[Mike Force Team]

Part of the lure, request, and desire to see the nuke weapons, along with the infamous mushroom cloud, is because ED does not model it.

Right now, we see a big bloob of scorched earth showing where the tactical nuke exploded. 

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

Part of the lure, request, and desire to see the nuke weapons, along with the infamous mushroom cloud, is because ED does not model it.

Right now, we see a big bloob of scorched earth showing where the tactical nuke exploded. 

 

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

The FPS hit is the only real issue.

 

 

And the level of classification these things are at. Does no one pay attention to this fact? It's the same reason we're not likely to see the F-117 or F-22 as official flyable modules. These things are too classified to get the right kind of data needed to properly model their use.

Also, that FPS hit.... it tends to kill entire servers.

[BIGNEWY]

We have no plans for modelling Nukes or the effects of nukes in DCS. 

thank you 

[Rex]

Nuclear weapons are destructive, obviously, but like almost everything, their destructive power is exaggerated.  Over 2,000 nuclear detonations have happened on earth (some quite large), and here we all are.  As it turns out, atmospheric ignition doesn't actually happen (fortunately for all of us).

Despite these 2,000-ish detonations, instead of nuclear winter, people claim that we need to worry about global warming instead.

The largest detonation ever, the Tsar Bomba, created a fireball with a radius  if about 3 miles.  Terrifying if you're in that three miles (or not since you won't know what hit you), but, for instance, the plane that dropped it landed safely.

So while nuclear weapons are scary as hell, and they definitely will kill a massive number of people should they ever strike large cities en-masse, I don't think they will bring about the end of the world.

Sure, they would end the mission in DCS, but who cares?  Watching an enormous explosion coalesce into a mushroom cloud in the DCS environment would be so cool, that it would totally be worth having to reset the mission. I mean, it's a hell of a climax to a mission, that's for sure.   It would be super-exciting to have them, and if you didn't immediately start creating missions for no other reason that to nuke random locations, then I weep for your loss of curiosity, creativity, and excitement.  If we ever got (real) nukes, dare I say that I wouldn't sleep for a month as I set about nuking every village, town, city and tree in the sim.  I'd make everyone I know watch along with me, and I would enjoy every single solitary last second of it.

If anyone truly would not want it, I'd have to seriously question why they even use DCS in the first place, as the thing that sets DCS apart from MS Flight Sim, X-Plane, etc, is the fact that we can we can send our opponents hurtling toward the ground in a ball of fire, before turning his ground units into kindle and blowing nearby buildings to smithereens.

Nukes are just a natural progression of this.  If you don't want them, fair enough, don't use them.   Don't take the option away from everyone else just because you don't see the point.   If I spend all day playing 5 minute missions that begin and end with me blowing my opponents to kingdom come with a single warhead, then it means that is what I want to do.  Yes, I'm still a 5 year-old mentally and I'm easily amused by things that go boom, but I already have a job and real-world problems, and if that's how I get my kicks then the more power to me, and you, and whomever else.

DCS, make proper big nukes with the accompanying awe-inspiring visuals and I'll send you a blank check to fill in as you see fit.  (not really, I'm making a point, but I'd probably pay a relatively decent amount for the pleasure)

Anyway, that's my two cents and it's worth every penny.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

We have no plans for modelling Nukes or the effects of nukes in DCS. 

thank you 

eh, plans change

I once swore to everyone who would listen that I'd never have kids. 

Then I did.  More than one!  To be fair, the wife helped a little, but it goes to illustrate the point.  Plans change.

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Rex

[Rex]

4 hours ago, Tank50us said:

And the level of classification these things are at. Does no one pay attention to this fact? It's the same reason we're not likely to see the F-117 or F-22 as official flyable modules. These things are too classified to get the right kind of data needed to properly model their use.

Also, that FPS hit.... it tends to kill entire servers.

So they're classified, big deal, how hard would it be to take an educated guess at the yield and model a really, really big explosion?

Are people really going to say, "wait a minute that bomb took out one tree too many ... I want a refund!"

Okay, forget I asked that question.   DCS fans can be an anal lot, and I could totally see that happening.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Rex

[Tank50us]

10 minutes ago, Rex said:

DCS fans can be an anal lot, and I could totally see that happening.

I could as well. But here's the thing, I'm sure the head of Heatblur would very much like to NOT have the FBI or CIA raid his home because they made an "Educated Guess" on how the A-6E functionally deploys nuclear weapons and got it too close to reality.

Tom Clancy and the guys behind Red Dawn had this happen to them. TC because his depiction of how US and USSR Subs worked was a bit too close to reality, and RD because the mock-ups used in the film looked a little too good to the point the CIA sent people to ask where they got them.

It reminds me of that line in Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction; "Have you ever had to deal with weapons inspectors? They can be particularly anal."
"Great, I love dealing with professional pains in the a--"

(The VG example is to illustrate how 'fun' dealing with three letter agencies can be ED)

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Rex said:

The largest detonation ever, the Tsar Bomba, created a fireball with a radius  if about 3 miles.  Terrifying if you're in that three miles (or not since you won't know what hit you), but, for instance, the plane that dropped it landed safely.

For what it's worth, it was the fireball itself. The blast shattered windows as far as Finland, and would have completely flattened about a quarter of a typical DCS map. It wouldn't even be a mission-ender, depending on where it blew.

Anyone remembers the old F-35 sim from Novalogic? That one had nukes, and you could even use them yourself. That is, quite rightly, unlikely to ever be seen in DCS due to classification issues. However, that doesn't mean we can't have AI deploy those weapons, either as an event-triggered ICBM strike, a ground-launched SRBM/MRBM, or an ALCM or ALBM launched by an AI plane.

[Beirut]

6 hours ago, Tank50us said:

And the level of classification these things are at. Does no one pay attention to this fact?

 

Just make a ginormous "KABOOM!"

 

Like the Holy Hand Grenade if you had to count to 5.  

[cfrag]

9 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Like the Holy Hand Grenade if you had to count to 5

I always thought that "five is right out"? My Antioch manual requires updating, I see.

Anyway, for me it's lights out when the conspiracy theorists enter the stage, and I think that this thread is well past that point.

 

[Beirut]

42 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I always thought that "five is right out"? My Antioch manual requires updating, I see.

 

 

You're right, and that's the point. Wild thing happen at 5. Fissionable fusionable things. 

 

42 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Anyway, for me it's lights out when the conspiracy theorists enter the stage, and I think that this thread is well past that point.

 

I don't want a conspiracy - I just want a Earth shattering "Kaboom!"

[Lurker]

3 hours ago, Rex said:

Nuclear weapons are destructive, obviously, but like almost everything, their destructive power is exaggerated.  Over 2,000 nuclear detonations have happened on earth (some quite large), and here we all are.  As it turns out, atmospheric ignition doesn't actually happen (fortunately for all of us).

Despite these 2,000-ish detonations, instead of nuclear winter, people claim that we need to worry about global warming instead.

The largest detonation ever, the Tsar Bomba, created a fireball with a radius  if about 3 miles.  Terrifying if you're in that three miles (or not since you won't know what hit you), but, for instance, the plane that dropped it landed safely.

So while nuclear weapons are scary as hell, and they definitely will kill a massive number of people should they ever strike large cities en-masse, I don't think they will bring about the end of the world.

Sure, they would end the mission in DCS, but who cares?  Watching an enormous explosion coalesce into a mushroom cloud in the DCS environment would be so cool, that it would totally be worth having to reset the mission. I mean, it's a hell of a climax to a mission, that's for sure.   It would be super-exciting to have them, and if you didn't immediately start creating missions for no other reason that to nuke random locations, then I weep for your loss of curiosity, creativity, and excitement.  If we ever got (real) nukes, dare I say that I wouldn't sleep for a month as I set about nuking every village, town, city and tree in the sim.  I'd make everyone I know watch along with me, and I would enjoy every single solitary last second of it.

If anyone truly would not want it, I'd have to seriously question why they even use DCS in the first place, as the thing that sets DCS apart from MS Flight Sim, X-Plane, etc, is the fact that we can we can send our opponents hurtling toward the ground in a ball of fire, before turning his ground units into kindle and blowing nearby buildings to smithereens.

Nukes are just a natural progression of this.  If you don't want them, fair enough, don't use them.   Don't take the option away from everyone else just because you don't see the point.   If I spend all day playing 5 minute missions that begin and end with me blowing my opponents to kingdom come with a single warhead, then it means that is what I want to do.  Yes, I'm still a 5 year-old mentally and I'm easily amused by things that go boom, but I already have a job and real-world problems, and if that's how I get my kicks then the more power to me, and you, and whomever else.

DCS, make proper big nukes with the accompanying awe-inspiring visuals and I'll send you a blank check to fill in as you see fit.  (not really, I'm making a point, but I'd probably pay a relatively decent amount for the pleasure)

Anyway, that's my two cents and it's worth every penny.

 

 

 

eh, plans change

I once swore to everyone who would listen that I'd never have kids. 

Then I did.  More than one!  To be fair, the wife helped a little, but it goes to illustrate the point.  Plans change.

 

There is too much rubbish in this post for me to make a rebuttal post by post, so I will try to use a bit of logic. How many of those 2000 nuclear warheads were exploded in almost "ideal" testing conditions, far from any population centers or even any real rural populations. How many of those 2000 warheads were tested underground? How many were detonated over farmland? Were any detonated simultaneously? 

Just one ICBM missile submarine has enough firepower to strategically annihilate any single country state. Take note, these are weapons which would be fired AFTER the main nuclear exchange, intentionally targeting large population centers, just to make sure that the enemy does not have the chance to rebuild after any kind of initial exchange. You have heard of the term nuclear triad right? Well there is an entire arm of the nuclear triad (fielded by Russia and NATO) whose sole purpose is to inflict as much damage as possible on civilian targets and infrastructure after any nuclear exchange is actually won or lost. 

[Beirut]

13 minutes ago, Lurker said:

You have heard of the term nuclear triad right? 

 

I have.

 

DCS, nukes, and beer. 

[cfrag]

15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There is too much rubbish in this post

Indeed. People "doing their own research", thinking they are "special", and that they are privy to some "secret" knowledge that is somehow suppressed by "orthodoxy", suppressed by "them". You know: Anti-Vaxxers, Flat-Earthers, Q, Sov-Cits, you name it. That's why I prefer to withdraw when these people show up in a thread. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by cfrag

[Beirut]

meh!

 

It's just a thing that goes "Kaboom!" 

 

It's like if a MK84 had a crazy uncle. 

[Rex]

On 12/2/2024 at 1:57 AM, Tank50us said:

I could as well. But here's the thing, I'm sure the head of Heatblur would very much like to NOT have the FBI or CIA raid his home because they made an "Educated Guess" on how the A-6E functionally deploys nuclear weapons and got it too close to reality.

 

No, no, no, no, no, apparently you didn't get the memo, we're a FREE COUNTRY.   We don't "raid homes" here, we have a 4th Amendment to protect against that kind of thing, and our rights are jealously guarded by a judiciary that does not trivially allow them to be trampled on without a damn good reason.   Warrants only have something like a 99.6% approval rate which means that Heatblur would have a 0.4% chance of NOT being raided.

Have faith in the integrity of your nation!

Also, I bought a "game" on Steam called "Nuclear War Simulator" which attempts to accurately model the effects of various classes of nuclear weapons.  To the best of my knowledge, he has hadn't any issues with the alphabet agencies.

Honestly, it makes no sense that they would care.  Nuclear-capable nations are already aware of what various yields do, hell, most of the scientific community knowns what various yields.  They're even on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B28_nuclear_bomb (note to devs: there's your source for the "classified" information)

Yes, the the data is "classified" all right.  It's classified as "#@$% everyone already knows".

Heatblur wouldn't be revealing any "secrets" and it's really unlikely that a bunch of random badmen are going to develop nukes + the platforms to deliver them.   If they did, DCS would be the least of our problems, and I don't imagine DCS would either help or hinder them.  Hell, that Star Wars game where people have to to drop a weapon in the Deathstar's ventilation shaft is a potential threat in that case.

I may be wrong.  Common sense is not our nation's strong suit, but I like to think some level of reason would prevail before the Heatblur guy had to worry about getting stovepiped in Leavenworth.

At least I sure hope hope that's the case.  Otherwise we'd really be swimming in a bag of horse excrement with our mouths wide open.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2024 by Rex

[Rex]

On 12/2/2024 at 5:43 AM, cfrag said:

Indeed. People "doing their own research", thinking they are "special", and that they are privy to some "secret" knowledge that is somehow suppressed by "orthodoxy", suppressed by "them". You know: Anti-Vaxxers, Flat-Earthers, Q, Sov-Cits, you name it. That's why I prefer to withdraw when these people show up in a thread. 

Don't forgot those other conspiracy theorists like the "there were no Vietnamese ships in the Gulf of Tonkin" types!  Those people make me sick!  There were all kinds of ships. hund er thous er millions ... yeah millions of ships were there!  And they all fired on the American ships who were sitting there, minding their own business and spreading Democrafreedom!

"Conspiracy theory" means "false", people!  Yes, 100% of the time.  That's why it's called "theory" and not "conspiracy fact"!  Duh!

And don't even get my started on the "anti-flouride" people!  Loons!  The lot of them. Wait, what do you mean they're in the process of revision water fluoridation recommendations?  Based on what a bunch of looney right-win ... oh, I see. Stuff like https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10706776/ " Twenty-one of the 23 studies concluded that higher fluoride exposure was associated with lower intelligence."

Yeah, but you can't trust scientists!  They lie!

And hey, remember those wingnuts who were all like "the vaccine will not prevent you from getting or spreading COVID!"

HA! Thanks to safe & effective vaccine, only 94% of Americans got COVID!  If those "special" people had their way, the rate would have been closer to 95%, or maybe even 96%!

Well no thank you, conspiracy nuts, I'll stick to science.  I mean, you know, the science that agrees with me!

The rest of you can take your "own research" and stick it where the sun don't shine!  You know, Seattle.  Stick it there!

Edited December 5, 2024 by Rex

[Beirut]

Beeg badaboom! 

 

[pautss]

On 12/5/2024 at 2:33 PM, Beirut said:

Биг бадабум! 

 

I drop the bomb to kill Saddam. More blood, more, guy's!) this model for a nuke blast is great for all. No blood, no fps limits, no terror, and all jet's have a P!NK button. Like?

Edited December 6, 2024 by pautss

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 12/4/2024 at 10:42 PM, Rex said:

Don't forgot those other conspiracy theorists like the "there were no Vietnamese ships in the Gulf of Tonkin" types!  Those people make me sick!  There were all kinds of ships. hund er thous er millions ... yeah millions of ships were there!  And they all fired on the American ships who were sitting there, minding their own business and spreading Democrafreedom!

"Conspiracy theory" means "false", people!  Yes, 100% of the time.  That's why it's called "theory" and not "conspiracy fact"!  Duh!

And don't even get my started on the "anti-flouride" people!  Loons!  The lot of them. Wait, what do you mean they're in the process of revision water fluoridation recommendations?  Based on what a bunch of looney right-win ... oh, I see. Stuff like https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10706776/ " Twenty-one of the 23 studies concluded that higher fluoride exposure was associated with lower intelligence."

Yeah, but you can't trust scientists!  They lie!

And hey, remember those wingnuts who were all like "the vaccine will not prevent you from getting or spreading COVID!"

HA! Thanks to safe & effective vaccine, only 94% of Americans got COVID!  If those "special" people had their way, the rate would have been closer to 95%, or maybe even 96%!

Well no thank you, conspiracy nuts, I'll stick to science.  I mean, you know, the science that agrees with me!

The rest of you can take your "own research" and stick it where the sun don't shine!  You know, Seattle.  Stick it there!

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

Edited December 9, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[mkellytx]

Everybody needs to stop asking for the nukes, since we'll never get them.  Instead ask for the practice bombs which simulate them.  There's enough out there public source that one of the campaign builders could make a very good REFORGER Exercise campaign, ORI/NORI or Strike qualification campaign on a cold war map (Incirlik anybody?).  A campaign where the final sortie is to take off alone and unafraid, fly the route with precise timing, get jumped by bandits, make it to the range, do the idiot loop, drop the shape on time, and close enough to the center to qualify.  After all, it's the alone and unafraid aviating, with zero tolerance for error that makes the mission set so difficult, challenging and potentially satisfying if you can do it.