Question on Traction vs Designated (MITL)

[jubuttib]

Heya, just trying to figure out whether this is the current expected behavior, and whether it's intended to be final.

When you use the SLAM and SLAM-ER missiles on the Hornet, they do the sensible thing and point towards the target area when they're in the terminal phase.

FWIW the following is with special settings as MITL Control Mode Traction, TDC Deadzone 0, DL Pod TDC Slew Rate 1, and 25 curve on my throttle's analog ministick, throttle is STECS.

By contrast the CM-802AKG seems to be flying level, regardless of whether you select skim or pop-up as the terminal guidance type (probably doesn't work on purpose, being just a carryover from the anti-shipping missile days).

If you're medium or high, you need to crank down the nose of the missile MASSIVELY to point at the target, and during the maneuver you basically lose all visibility. Just kinda gotta hope you can reacquire the target afterwards, and that you were pointing in the right direction overall (which thankfully is at least usually the case).

Is this expected behavior? Something to be fixed?

The TDC controls are also a bit weird. You need a LOT of input to create any movement (there's a huge deadzone), and then it turns very quickly, so getting it to accurately point at a target is quite challenging. In addition if you let go of the TDC input quickly (like if you were to flick the stick, for example), the input doesn't always center properly, so you can end up with the missile constantly veering to the side after inputs.

So all in all you when you get control you:

1. Can't see the target without cranking the nose down (unless you're flying very low level and are lucky), which makes you temporarily blind, and you have no guidance on how much you need to point down
2. You have a huge deadzone to start with, so you wanna push the stick quickly to get past it
3. If you do that, you'll very easily run over the slower section of the input range, making tiny corrections really difficult
4. Even if your input is very gentle, the minimum amount of movement is quite a lot, so it's hard to prevent turning too much
5. If you just let go of the TDC and let the stick snap to center on spring pressure, the TDC won't always center properly, and the missile will keep veering to the side

This "minimum input is really high" problem doesn't happen with the radar, TGP or any other sensor for that matter, AND it doesn't happen when the CM-802AKG is set into "Designate" MITL Control Mode. I can move the seeker around with ease and accuracy using that mode. It's however a bit iffy when used from high altitude, since the dive down problem still exists, so you do want to be low down to use it.

Again, expected behavior? Something to be fixed?

Edited February 17, 2024 by jubuttib

[antiload]

CM-802AKG - This hasn't worked well for a while. I wish they'd just use the SLAM scheme but with the range of the original concept for this missile (if possible).

When the jet was first released, this, and the CM-802 were a delight to use.

I don't understand why it doesn't have the option to automatically bear down on the target. Also currently it isn't generating ground textures, so it's pretty difficult to impossible to spot your target. I have already raised this in the main ED weapons bug section a while ago.

Edited August 14, 2024 by antiload

[Deezle]

Coming back to this wonderful module after a break for a couple years and I've been noticing this as well. I recall the missile used to point in the general area of the target during the terminal phase, allowing for easy MITL corrections. Now it's extremely difficult.

[jubuttib]

1 hour ago, Deezle said:

Coming back to this wonderful module after a break for a couple years and I've been noticing this as well. I recall the missile used to point in the general area of the target during the terminal phase, allowing for easy MITL corrections. Now it's extremely difficult.

FWIW I don't ever recall having it pointing at the target in the Jeff, only with the Hornet MITL missiles. But it might have been longer ago than I've been playing...

Edited September 20, 2024 by jubuttib

[tekwoj]

 

[sylkhan]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

FWIW I don't ever recall having it pointing at the target in the Jeff, only with the Hornet MITL missiles. But it might have been longer ago than I've been playing...

 

Correct, for some obscure reasons, the CM-802 AKG never pointed at the targets.

It's been unusable, since a long time

Edited September 20, 2024 by sylkhan

[Deezle]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

FWIW I don't ever recall having it pointing at the target in the Jeff, only with the Hornet MITL missiles. But it might have been longer ago than I've been playing...

 

I may be misremembering that. I do know the video quality is now really bad.

[jubuttib]

6 hours ago, sylkhan said:

Correct, for some obscure reasons, the CM-802 AKG never pointed at the targets.

It's been unusable, since a long time

 

I wouldn't say "unusable", I have used it to good effect, but certainly very tough to use.

[sylkhan]

14 hours ago, jubuttib said:

I wouldn't say "unusable",

Compared to what it should be, it is.

14 hours ago, jubuttib said:

I have used it to good effect, but certainly very tough to use.

Sure, if you don't see anything (no terrain/target rendering for range>50mn), it is very tough to use

Edited September 21, 2024 by sylkhan

[Dr_Pavelheer]

@sylkhan He's probably still using ST version of DCS, terrain rendering bug is just in MT

[sylkhan]

11 hours ago, Dr_Pavelheer said:

@sylkhan He's probably still using ST version of DCS, terrain rendering bug is just in MT

@Dr_Pavelheer good point.

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

@Dr_Pavelheer good point.

I do not recall being able to use this missile effectively since at least 1 year. Al the time on multi-threading. My understanding is the ED needs to fix this since 3rd parties do not control weapons anymore.

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

@Dr_Pavelheer good point.

 

12 hours ago, Dr_Pavelheer said:

@sylkhan He's probably still using ST version of DCS, terrain rendering bug is just in MT

I do not recall being able to use this missile effectively since at least 1 year. Al the time on multi-threading. My understanding is the ED needs to fix this since 3rd parties do not control weapons anymore.

[tekwoj]

I was able to use it few months ago, the trick was to play a bit with gain and level, using the designated steering mode. Taking control before the missile reaches the 10nm distance also helped.

[Napillo]

It also helps to study the map first, use the satellite view and pay attention to landmarks around your target. Video is worse than an FPV drone.

[Dr_Pavelheer]

Yesterday I booted up the game using ST exe just to play with the missile and image quality was serviceable at 80 nm, didn't feel the need to play with image settings or anything.

But it's like Napillo said, you need to study your target area, also you need be reasonable with target type choice (as in there probably are better choices if you want to kill a single technical or BTR).

If you're using MT exe then no amount of messing with contrast and gain will help you, terrain simply isn't rendered. Fun fact, you can still see manually placed objects, vehicles, even aircraft, even if they shouldn't be visible because there is a mountain between missile and target area

[jubuttib]

None of the following is to say that "it's good", it's really really bad vs. the Hornet ones, but I am still able to use them:

I have been using MT, but I guess I had this vague memory of the range for the transmission being something like 100 km, or 54 nauts, so I guess I hadn't been trying my luck quite as far as you guys. Below 50 nauts the terrain is rendered just fine, but trees aren't, which is definitely a problem.

However testing just now I could get target and building (normal residential ones on the map, not hand placed, but low poly LODs) rendering at distances in excess of 80 nauts, though terrain was just a greyscale mush. I feel fairly certain there was terrain there though, but I need to test this in a much more hilly area to make sure.

It's also wild how different the view is in narrow and wide FOV, you can see so much more so much better in narrow, and bumping gain by 4-6 clicks made it even better.

Cut-off at ~50 nauts is pretty obvious, but targets are rendered beyond the texture rendering limit:

Low LOD buildings and ostensible terrain + water (the white part in the distance) being rendered at over 80 nauts away:

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

• The CM-802AKG has always required MITL in all 3 modes. DIR (SPI), COO (PP) and MAN (RPs) are all fly over points.
  It's like the IAF's Delilah, and not like the SLAM.
• The DLPod's missing ground texture rendering in the MT version is still not fixed as of today !!
   

Edited November 26, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

In the real jet, does the pilot steer the CM8 via the

a) traction method (steers missile in real time), or
b) designated method ('steering' moves missile cam only, designate (does not lock target) then makes missile go where crosshairs are pointing)?

I'm thinking it's (a) as it's more realistic and that (b) was added to make it easier in the sim.  

Edited November 29, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Goodwin]

В 26.11.2024 в 12:08, GrEaSeLiTeNiN сказал:

• The CM-802AKG has always required MITL in all 3 modes. DIR (SPI), COO (PP) and MAN (RPs) are all fly over points.
  It's like the IAF's Delilah, and not like the SLAM.
• The DLPod's missing ground texture rendering in the MT version is still not fixed as of today !!
   

Hey?! Developers  @uboats
Are you working on a solution? How much longer do we have to wait?
The cruise missiles are actually broken. One of the main mechanics of the plane does not work.

Edited February 26 by Goodwin

[SpecteRED]

Any updates of Pod texture rendering for CM-802AKG?

[Dr_Pavelheer]

@SpecteRED