F-5E-3 Remaster Skins

[Mach3DS]

Just now, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

9L, I think there's a misunderstanding here.  It's not possible to paint the model at all.   The file structure doesn't exist, and the LUA code is unavailable.  That's the biggest issue.  We can't make anything - not even the hard way, even if we wanted to.  

[Backy 51]

23 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

How about this NineLine:

For all these encrypted assets provide the following in a new forum section called "MISC PAINTKIT DATA". It could be further organized into LAND/SEA/AIR/STATIC subsets.

1 - Default Description.lua

2 - Complete ARG list PDF

3 - Default asset livery folder name for Saved Games 

4 - Unencrypted default textures set 

This still protects the 3D model IP and gives livery makers the ability to access the info they need to make new liveries.

I would gladly volunteer to assist in this effort, and I am sure so would many others.

 

Edited January 22 by Backy 51

[SkateZilla]

14 hours ago, waterman said:

Yes i agree but thats it.

We also need Model Viewer to see the args in action and texture names etc.

Also we cannot "steal" a DCS EDM Model and change it in any way.

Thats what the Private DCS EDM format protects against already.

If i could i would have fixed the DCS trains years ago instead of making my own !

Theres more going on than meets the eye as they say .

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

[Marnes23]

This answer and  the excuses given do not actually answer any of the communities questions and it certainly does not solve any of the problems related to painting the F-5 or any of the new AI assets.

You cannot "old school paint" if you don't even know the file structure or the LUA descriptions.

Also spending several hours opening and closing DCS itself to see a microscopic misalignment is absolutely ridiculous.

We are aware of the fact that ED wants to protect it's models and such, it's old news but then why release a template if it is utterly and completely useless to the community, rather just acknowledge that in the future we will be unable to make skins or that at some point in the future there will exist a way to be able to use the template.

Anyhow thank you for trying anyway.

[Backy 51]

2 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

By that logic, a determined hacker can probably break the EDCE cypher too. So what's the point?

[Wyvern]

37 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

then how about this:

How about YOU try and make a livery with a public build of DCS, and then we will see how far you will get.

We can NOT make skins when everything is hidden.


Again. its great that we have a livery template. (the template itself is great and well made)
But its literally useless, since we dont have the ability to make anything with it.

We dont have a lua we can use as reference, we dont have the modelviewer to actually track our progress without having to boot up the game for 10 minutes each time, we dont have textures for misc stuff so we can add in the detail we simply add in.


And honestly? 
Im fairly certain that most people here know that the models can be ripped regardless.
Afaik there are tools that let you rip the models from the game directly. (dont quote me on that, i have not looked into that as i cant do anything with 3d anyway)

[PSV_Tango]

We understand the concerns regarding piracy and the need to implement necessary precautions. However, the current approach has left us with only a template, without any supporting elements,no arguments to work with, no file structure, and no clear direction. It feels like receiving a car without an engine.

While i don’t mind launching the game repeatedly if needed, at this stage, we simply lack the essential tools to move forward. Would it be possible for you to provide a sample folder along with an argument list? This would enable us to create liveries content.

Edited January 22 by PSV_Tango

[Wyvern]

12 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

Then how about ED settles with Razbam and actually uses their legal team to actually sue said individuals instead.

 

Edited January 22 by Wyvern

[SkateZilla]

5 minutes ago, Backy 51 said:

By that logic, a determined hacker can probably break the EDCE cypher too. So what's the point?

w/ EDCE in place, it would be a scrambled mess.

I was referring to current .EDM models.

[okopanja]

15 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

Any known example you can share?

[pyromaniac4002]

38 minutes ago, NineLine said:

..but it just isn't available yet..

You nor any other ED representative has said anything about any changes that will make community-made liveries possible again after this well understood decision to destroy it. No one has even directly responded to our concerns about the end of livery making. This is as close as anyone from ED has gotten, an offhand remark to put me in my place.

If there is something, tell us what it is like we've been asking from the beginning of this thread.

[SkateZilla]

12 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Any known example you can share?

Of Models being Stolen, or Models being dumped from memory?

I'm not comfortable treading into this topic, as it borderlines piracy etc etc, That being said, the subject chain of discussion on the matter should prolly stop now.

[Mach3DS]

1 hour ago, PSV_Tango said:

While we don’t mind launching the game repeatedly if needed, at this stage, we simply lack the essential tools to move forward. Would it be possible for you to provide a sample folder along with an argument list? This would enable us to create liveries content.

No, I very much am NOT willing to do that. 

And once you try, you'll realize that it's not really practical to use for a substitute tool.  That's not even the biggest issue.  The issue is load times.  It takes me like 3-5 mins to load the sim each time.  Vs a single button press to reload a texture - 1 second..  at minimum that's 180 to 300x longer.  Just to see a change.  It's not worth the time.  I click that button at least 45x times a session while doing alignments or adjusting Roughmets or normals.  I don't think people understand what that actually means.  I spend up to 60 real hours on a high quality livery with custom everything, before it's complete.  Just clicking the button replacing it with opening the full sim --  If I did that 45x in a session that's 180 seconds x 45.  8100 seconds or 2.25 hours of straight waiting.  No thanks.   I have better things I could be doing with my life.   That's why this is such a big deal.  Now realistically I prob click that button way more than that.  But If I cut it down to like even 30x in a session.  That's way too much waiting; and it makes it impractical for me to paint with such slow progress.  

 

  

Edited January 22 by Mach3DS

[PSV_Tango]

11 minutes ago, Mach3DS said:

No, I very much am NOT willing to do that. 

And once you try, you'll realize that it's not really practical to use for a substitute tool.  That's not even the biggest issue.  The issue is load times.  It takes me like 3-5 mins to load the sim each time.  Vs a single button press to reload a texture - 1 second..  at minimum that's 180 to 300x longer.  Just to see a change.  It's not worth the time.  I click that button at least 45x times a session while doing alignments or adjusting Roughmets or normals.  I don't think people understand what that actually means.  I spend up to 60 real hours on a high quality livery with custom everything, before it's complete.  Just clicking the button replacing it with opening the full sim --  If I did that 45x in a session that's 180 seconds x 45.  8100 seconds or 2.25 hours of straight waiting.  No thanks.   I have better things I could be doing with my life.   That's why this is such a big deal.  Now realistically I prob click that button way more than that.  But If I cut it down to like even 30x in a session.  That's way too much waiting; and it makes it impractical for me to paint with such slow progress.  

 

  

I understand your frustration, and I fully share it. However, given the current situation, I’d rather have a sample livery file to start working on rather than waiting and doing nothing. Let’s be honest, I don’t think a solution to all this will come anytime soon, and that’s quite sad.

[Flаnker]

I support my fellow skin creators. I spent hundreds of hours on some liveries - adjusting every pixel and pressing the "refresh textures" button every few minutes. Without a model viewer, drawing high-quality skins is unrealistic.

[Mach3DS]

I'd rather not support this kind of action with my talent.   I'm not wasting my life when a better method exits and has existed for years.  This is a massive step backwards.  With all due respect, they can do what they want it's their company.  I do think it's the wrong decision.  

[sa63114200]

Replicating colors correctly (mostly from a bunch of photos taken at different hours of day) is an essential part of livery making. This becomes more challenging with multicolor camo skins that I usually have to contend with. The time of day slider in the ModelViewer is a huge timesaver in that regard. Subsituting that with changing the time in a mission for hours on end to finally match a color is simply unthinkable to me. This is yet another reason why the old school way of painting without ModelViewer is just not going to work for me. I would rather spend my time creating skins for mods/modules I can utilize the ModelViewer for, and also have full access to their textures files that I would need.

[Mach3DS]

And my biggest worry is that they will do this to the other models as well.   Frankly, with that in mind, why would I put anymore time into any module if it could just be encrypted and then all that work is sidelined and totally unusable?  That really sucks motivation.  And ultimately this is why I haven't painted mods, because they break and all that work is a complete waste.  Any way I digress.  I've said my piece.  

I am hopeful that we will get a good resolution.  Can't imagine that they want user created textures to go away.  

Wish you all the best.  

Edited January 22 by Mach3DS

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

I have participated numerous times in the competitions and greatly enjoyed seeing what's possible given hard work by talented creators. The winning skins are now part of the default hangar and a (IMHO) real boon to the community. I hope to participate in any future competitions but there will surely be no such competition for the F-5. No, as @Mach3DS and others have said, it's just not possible to skin it as is... "Old School" methods won't work. I can live without doing the F-5 but my great fear is that any new releases (please, please, please NOT the MiG-29!) will be in the same category of non skinnable.

Is there any time estimate to "until we do get something better"?

Looks like I'm going to have to really push my desire to get on one of the module makers skinning teams... (hint, hint, wink, wink Developers). 

[Awacs_bandog]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

this is a total misunderstanding of the problem.


We can't even support this F-5E even if we wanted to, and even the Heavy Metal stuff was pulling teeth to the point I doubt you'll see a lot of movement on that front either.


Livery Competitions are great as long as we can actually work on the item itself.

[Trooper117]

Blimey, this is worse than I thought...

[NineLine]

Guys, you need to settle down a little, I have asked about a solution to the model editor issue, but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them. But I have asked for a solution that will work here.

We have asked for the description.lua example and helmet and pilot textures. But please, let's not blow this out of proportion give us time to look into it, piling on will not help here. 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Thanks for the reply 9. Its good to know that y'all are working on some kind of solution. I do understand about the need to protect your property. Personally, I don't feel that we were overreacting due to having little to no information from ED about this issue and I hope that you understand our concerns. Please do what you can to regularly keep us informed about possible solutions, even if it's "we're still working on it guys, no news yet".

[Wyvern]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them.

There has to be another way tho.
I mean, it wouldnt seem unrealistic to sue people who do it.

Just giving us textures and a lua file will not cut it for livery making.

My suggestion would be:
Include the ModelViewer as a function into the game.
This would be a perfect use for the Encyclopedia tab.

However, that would pose the question of how you can add in the functions we have in MV.
Let me show you which tabs I have open when working on something, and give a general overview of the modelviewer and its important functions:
Just to explain why we make such a big deal out if it.

(this ended up being a bit longer than I thought)
i added some color help to make it easier to understand:

LiveriesToolPlugin
With this tool we select the liveries we are working on.
It gives us a list of all liveries, for all units in the game that have liveries in the first place.

CONNECTOR_TOOL_PLUGIN
With this tool we cal select the connectors on the aircraft, which is how we usally put on Fuel Tanks, to see how they look on the plane.

Scene Window
Here we can select the object we are viewing. If you add an Object with the Connector Tool (lets say a Fuel Tank), we can go to the Scene Tab and select it. After this, we can click on the livery in the Livery tool to change the texture we are viewing.

This is where the abilities on the Mission Editor ends.

Argument Viewer
With this tool we can see all the arguments (aka animations and Blendshapes)
We use this to extend the gear, open the canopy, move the ailerons and flaps, so we can texture in more detail.
Without it, we would have to load into a mission, and then fly and maneuver in certain ways, just to see the flaps fully extended.
On some planes (like the flanker for example) The arguments also change the visual shape of the pylon.
While on other planes (like the F-16) it controls where or how the Bortnumbers look, aswell as the number they display.
Overall, this is one of the most important tools we have, as it saves an excessive amount of time.

Texture Viewer
Here we can see (most) textures that are being loaded.
We can use it to navigate to the folder that has the texture in it, we can view the UV layout, and we can view the texture in detail.
Here it shows both the Default, but also the modified textures the livery has loaded.
This tool is EXTREMELY useful, as not all textures are located where you would expect them to be (F-16 Fuel tanks are a great example with them being in Bazar, and not in the F-16 Core Mods folder)

Reload Textures
As you might guess, this button reloads the textures.
If you would use the game to look at your changes, you would have to re-launch the game each time you make a change.
Obviously, having this button is 500x times faster, which obviously is going to be better than waiting 5 minutes to start the game and load into a mission, just to see that you need to move the camo by a few pixels to make it align across different textures.


Environment/Lighting
This here lets us view the loaded object in different Lighting conditions. From Dusk, night, cloudy, desert, or Woodland, its a good thing to have, as this way we can get a reference how the skin will look with certain weather options and maps.

Generate Lua File
This button lets us generate a Lua file, that has all the texture-names and lines for the Description.lua on the aircraft/object we are viewing.

Other Notable Tools: 
FOV tool: Lets us zoom into the aircraft to view areas with more focus

Free Camera movement: We can rotate and move the model to get better lighting angles and such, which is very important and irreplacable for making camos, especially when they have smooth, gradients as edges.

F1-F12 keys:
They let us view the textures in different overlays, those being the following:
F1 Regular Lighting 
F2 Wireframe
F3 Base Color (with no lighting, just shows the diffuse textures how they are with no reflections)
F4 Normal map (shows the normal maps in a special color view, that helps to see the effect of the normals)
F5 Roughness (shows the Green Color Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this controls how Rough (matte) or smooth (shiny) the surface is)
F6 Metallic (shows the Blue Color Channel fo the RoughMets in greyscale, this controls wether a surface is Metal or not)
F7 Emissive (shows areas that emit light (Formation lights, F-15E Afterburner Cans, etc)
F8 Material Errors (honestly, i still have no actual understanding what this does specifically)
F9 Ambient Occlusion (shows the Red Color Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this shows where a surface has a shadow (in simple terms))
F10 Cavity Maps (shows the Alpha/transparency Channel of the RoughMets in greyscale, this adds some extra shade for seams and screws)
F11 Combined View (shows all the previous views, has been broken for a few years now)
F12 Cockpit Global Illumination (not sure if im correct, but it shows how and where exactly shadows are being applied on the model
Shift+F11 Diffuse Light (technically shows how much light is being applied on each area of the model, can be used to see the normal maps better than F4 view)

This is a basic overview of the tools we have in Model Viewer, and as you see, most tools we NEED to make skins, are only avialable in the ModelViewer
Sorry for the giant message, but i feel like ED/the community mods dont fully realize the importance of the tool, and why we need what we are asking for.

I hope this helps with understanding, have a nice day!

Edited January 22 by Wyvern

[Awacs_bandog]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Guys, you need to settle down a little, I have asked about a solution to the model editor issue, but we need to protect our models, blame those who like to steal them. But I have asked for a solution that will work here.

We have asked for the description.lua example and helmet and pilot textures. But please, let's not blow this out of proportion give us time to look into it, piling on will not help here. 

Except instead of punishing those at fault, you're punishing those of us who do work.

I get obviously you personally are just the messenger, and understand these aren't aimed at you, but maybe convey to the powers at be what they're doing does have a negative impact on the mod community that, according to Wag's last video, you value greatly.

We're getting two different messages here.