F-5E-3 Remaster Skins

[Mach3DS]

Guys, the LUA is only one part of what we actually need.  

1.  Model Viewer for Work flow and LUA.

2. Textures unlocked - for custom things like flight suits helmets patches, cockpits etc. normals, Roughmets, glass.  

3.  We need them unlocked so that we have a file path that the game actually recognizes as where textures are stored.  Currently we have no path (that I'm aware of).  So like, what do you call the folder?  Even if you have the LUA you don't have a folder/file path structure.  

  

[pyromaniac4002]

49 minutes ago, Cab said:

To my mind, this is par for the course. Anything can happen but I don't think it's time to start assuming doom and gloom.

Why would they release the template if they didn't plan on community liveries?

ED has never been particularly supportive of community contributions to their products that they can't monetize directly. I've been deeply involved in running servers and making missions and liveries for well over a decade in DCS and it's not unfair to say that much of the work I've seen go in to making the best experiences I've had in DCS has been done in spite of ED rather than with their genuine support.

They released the template because they already have it finished for themselves and it won't cost anything to make it a public download. Maybe even someone desperate enough to put some paint on an F-5 will trial-and-error their way in to finding out how to name things and what to put in the description.lua to get the most rudimentary implementation of a skin one day, and will subject themselves to hours and hours of opening and closing DCS to use the mission editor as their severely crippled model viewer.. For the rest of us, the complete lack of acknowledgement of the issue for months says everything.

[Cab]

Just now, pyromaniac4002 said:

ED has never been particularly supportive of community contributions to their products that they can't monetize directly. I've been deeply involved in running servers and making missions and liveries for well over a decade in DCS and it's not unfair to say that much of the work I've seen go in to making the best experiences I've had in DCS has been done in spite of ED rather than with their genuine support.

They released the template because they already have it finished for themselves and it won't cost anything to make it a public download. Maybe even someone desperate enough to put some paint on an F-5 will trial-and-error their way in to finding out how to name things and what to put in the description.lua to get the most rudimentary implementation of a skin one day, and will subject themselves to hours and hours of opening and closing DCS to use the mission editor as their severely crippled model viewer.. For the rest of us, the complete lack of acknowledgement of the issue for months says everything.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Tons of user mods are available on the ED website, not to mention the many community aircraft available. I'm not pretending to have any particular insight, and I would NEVER try to predict what ED plans, but I would bet a soda that user created liveries are not a thing of the past.

I think ya'll are working yourselves up for no reason. At least at this time. 

[NineLine]

10 minutes ago, pyromaniac4002 said:

the complete lack of acknowledgement of the issue for months says everything.

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

[Mach3DS]

Just now, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

9L, I think there's a misunderstanding here.  It's not possible to paint the model at all.   The file structure doesn't exist, and the LUA code is unavailable.  That's the biggest issue.  We can't make anything - not even the hard way, even if we wanted to.  

[Backy 51]

23 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

How about this NineLine:

For all these encrypted assets provide the following in a new forum section called "MISC PAINTKIT DATA". It could be further organized into LAND/SEA/AIR/STATIC subsets.

1 - Default Description.lua

2 - Complete ARG list PDF

3 - Default asset livery folder name for Saved Games 

4 - Unencrypted default textures set 

This still protects the 3D model IP and gives livery makers the ability to access the info they need to make new liveries.

I would gladly volunteer to assist in this effort, and I am sure so would many others.

 

Edited January 22 by Backy 51

[SkateZilla]

14 hours ago, waterman said:

Yes i agree but thats it.

We also need Model Viewer to see the args in action and texture names etc.

Also we cannot "steal" a DCS EDM Model and change it in any way.

Thats what the Private DCS EDM format protects against already.

If i could i would have fixed the DCS trains years ago instead of making my own !

Theres more going on than meets the eye as they say .

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

[Marnes23]

This answer and  the excuses given do not actually answer any of the communities questions and it certainly does not solve any of the problems related to painting the F-5 or any of the new AI assets.

You cannot "old school paint" if you don't even know the file structure or the LUA descriptions.

Also spending several hours opening and closing DCS itself to see a microscopic misalignment is absolutely ridiculous.

We are aware of the fact that ED wants to protect it's models and such, it's old news but then why release a template if it is utterly and completely useless to the community, rather just acknowledge that in the future we will be unable to make skins or that at some point in the future there will exist a way to be able to use the template.

Anyhow thank you for trying anyway.

[Backy 51]

2 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

By that logic, a determined hacker can probably break the EDCE cypher too. So what's the point?

[Wyvern]

37 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

then how about this:

How about YOU try and make a livery with a public build of DCS, and then we will see how far you will get.

We can NOT make skins when everything is hidden.


Again. its great that we have a livery template. (the template itself is great and well made)
But its literally useless, since we dont have the ability to make anything with it.

We dont have a lua we can use as reference, we dont have the modelviewer to actually track our progress without having to boot up the game for 10 minutes each time, we dont have textures for misc stuff so we can add in the detail we simply add in.


And honestly? 
Im fairly certain that most people here know that the models can be ripped regardless.
Afaik there are tools that let you rip the models from the game directly. (dont quote me on that, i have not looked into that as i cant do anything with 3d anyway)

[PSV_Tango]

We understand the concerns regarding piracy and the need to implement necessary precautions. However, the current approach has left us with only a template, without any supporting elements,no arguments to work with, no file structure, and no clear direction. It feels like receiving a car without an engine.

While i don’t mind launching the game repeatedly if needed, at this stage, we simply lack the essential tools to move forward. Would it be possible for you to provide a sample folder along with an argument list? This would enable us to create liveries content.

Edited January 22 by PSV_Tango

[Wyvern]

12 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

Then how about ED settles with Razbam and actually uses their legal team to actually sue said individuals instead.

 

Edited January 22 by Wyvern

[SkateZilla]

5 minutes ago, Backy 51 said:

By that logic, a determined hacker can probably break the EDCE cypher too. So what's the point?

w/ EDCE in place, it would be a scrambled mess.

I was referring to current .EDM models.

[okopanja]

15 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

the .EDM Format did not protect against models being converted, I'll leave it at that, ED's Models were being exported and re-used in other games/sims by individuals.

in fact, even now, with the right tools, I can dump anything from VRAM Memory and import it into 3DS.

Any known example you can share?

[pyromaniac4002]

38 minutes ago, NineLine said:

..but it just isn't available yet..

You nor any other ED representative has said anything about any changes that will make community-made liveries possible again after this well understood decision to destroy it. No one has even directly responded to our concerns about the end of livery making. This is as close as anyone from ED has gotten, an offhand remark to put me in my place.

If there is something, tell us what it is like we've been asking from the beginning of this thread.

[SkateZilla]

12 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Any known example you can share?

Of Models being Stolen, or Models being dumped from memory?

I'm not comfortable treading into this topic, as it borderlines piracy etc etc, That being said, the subject chain of discussion on the matter should prolly stop now.

[Mach3DS]

1 hour ago, PSV_Tango said:

While we don’t mind launching the game repeatedly if needed, at this stage, we simply lack the essential tools to move forward. Would it be possible for you to provide a sample folder along with an argument list? This would enable us to create liveries content.

No, I very much am NOT willing to do that. 

And once you try, you'll realize that it's not really practical to use for a substitute tool.  That's not even the biggest issue.  The issue is load times.  It takes me like 3-5 mins to load the sim each time.  Vs a single button press to reload a texture - 1 second..  at minimum that's 180 to 300x longer.  Just to see a change.  It's not worth the time.  I click that button at least 45x times a session while doing alignments or adjusting Roughmets or normals.  I don't think people understand what that actually means.  I spend up to 60 real hours on a high quality livery with custom everything, before it's complete.  Just clicking the button replacing it with opening the full sim --  If I did that 45x in a session that's 180 seconds x 45.  8100 seconds or 2.25 hours of straight waiting.  No thanks.   I have better things I could be doing with my life.   That's why this is such a big deal.  Now realistically I prob click that button way more than that.  But If I cut it down to like even 30x in a session.  That's way too much waiting; and it makes it impractical for me to paint with such slow progress.  

 

  

Edited January 22 by Mach3DS

[PSV_Tango]

11 minutes ago, Mach3DS said:

No, I very much am NOT willing to do that. 

And once you try, you'll realize that it's not really practical to use for a substitute tool.  That's not even the biggest issue.  The issue is load times.  It takes me like 3-5 mins to load the sim each time.  Vs a single button press to reload a texture - 1 second..  at minimum that's 180 to 300x longer.  Just to see a change.  It's not worth the time.  I click that button at least 45x times a session while doing alignments or adjusting Roughmets or normals.  I don't think people understand what that actually means.  I spend up to 60 real hours on a high quality livery with custom everything, before it's complete.  Just clicking the button replacing it with opening the full sim --  If I did that 45x in a session that's 180 seconds x 45.  8100 seconds or 2.25 hours of straight waiting.  No thanks.   I have better things I could be doing with my life.   That's why this is such a big deal.  Now realistically I prob click that button way more than that.  But If I cut it down to like even 30x in a session.  That's way too much waiting; and it makes it impractical for me to paint with such slow progress.  

 

  

I understand your frustration, and I fully share it. However, given the current situation, I’d rather have a sample livery file to start working on rather than waiting and doing nothing. Let’s be honest, I don’t think a solution to all this will come anytime soon, and that’s quite sad.

[Flаnker]

I support my fellow skin creators. I spent hundreds of hours on some liveries - adjusting every pixel and pressing the "refresh textures" button every few minutes. Without a model viewer, drawing high-quality skins is unrealistic.

[Mach3DS]

I'd rather not support this kind of action with my talent.   I'm not wasting my life when a better method exits and has existed for years.  This is a massive step backwards.  With all due respect, they can do what they want it's their company.  I do think it's the wrong decision.  

[sa63114200]

Replicating colors correctly (mostly from a bunch of photos taken at different hours of day) is an essential part of livery making. This becomes more challenging with multicolor camo skins that I usually have to contend with. The time of day slider in the ModelViewer is a huge timesaver in that regard. Subsituting that with changing the time in a mission for hours on end to finally match a color is simply unthinkable to me. This is yet another reason why the old school way of painting without ModelViewer is just not going to work for me. I would rather spend my time creating skins for mods/modules I can utilize the ModelViewer for, and also have full access to their textures files that I would need.

[Mach3DS]

And my biggest worry is that they will do this to the other models as well.   Frankly, with that in mind, why would I put anymore time into any module if it could just be encrypted and then all that work is sidelined and totally unusable?  That really sucks motivation.  And ultimately this is why I haven't painted mods, because they break and all that work is a complete waste.  Any way I digress.  I've said my piece.  

I am hopeful that we will get a good resolution.  Can't imagine that they want user created textures to go away.  

Wish you all the best.  

Edited January 22 by Mach3DS

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

I have participated numerous times in the competitions and greatly enjoyed seeing what's possible given hard work by talented creators. The winning skins are now part of the default hangar and a (IMHO) real boon to the community. I hope to participate in any future competitions but there will surely be no such competition for the F-5. No, as @Mach3DS and others have said, it's just not possible to skin it as is... "Old School" methods won't work. I can live without doing the F-5 but my great fear is that any new releases (please, please, please NOT the MiG-29!) will be in the same category of non skinnable.

Is there any time estimate to "until we do get something better"?

Looks like I'm going to have to really push my desire to get on one of the module makers skinning teams... (hint, hint, wink, wink Developers). 

[Awacs_bandog]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'm sorry, but we have said why this change has happened as our models and such have been stolen, and we had to plug that hole. I agree it would be nice to make the model viewer work but protect our IP as well, but it just isn't available yet, so it is old-school painting for now until we do get something better.

We have livery competitions with great prizes all the time, I do not see that as a sign that we are trying to get rid of community modding or somehow suppress anyone.

this is a total misunderstanding of the problem.


We can't even support this F-5E even if we wanted to, and even the Heavy Metal stuff was pulling teeth to the point I doubt you'll see a lot of movement on that front either.


Livery Competitions are great as long as we can actually work on the item itself.

[Trooper117]

Blimey, this is worse than I thought...