Confused with the targeting pod...

[Jyge]

In the first second I got really thrilled by the F-16C, coming from other modules, maybe F/A-18 as the primary contender. I played the trainings and looked through couple of YouTube videos and I started playing the Wild Weasel Campaign. So far ok, but now with Mission 3 I have to admit that I am not very proficient with TPOD.

Maybe I start with stuff I found out before that. I prefer the HAD to the HSD as I can select the enemy radar and get the TPOD into the right direction (thrilled as I am not aware F/A-18 working this way, until now the third display has been more informative but other than that, not really that much use)

Well once I get the TPOD somewhere there I start looking and I might find it. At this point comes the first irritation. I may get my target to a nice point track and I decide to go for mavericks instead of GBU38. If I switch then to PRE and stuff, the TPOD now points to whereever, but my nice little point track is gone and my target is again somewhere. How can I return there or how do I avoid this behaviour altogether?

I saw somewhere that you could define offset targets and get back to those, but most of the time I do not even see that TGT on TPOD display? Is there some strange condition, like weapon needs to be on PRE or VIS or whatever.

Then back to the Maverick. I put TPOD to AUTO and MAV to PRE and I have my point track, but the Maverick seeker keeps on pointing to wherever, but certainly not to my TPOD point. I have not really managed one single time to get that lock from TPOD. I would expect the seeker to point to that TPOD point, even if it does not get a lock so that I can use the WPN view and try a manual lock, but it is pointing ... whereever.

Then comes the funny part. I can not even get my TPOD to point to a Steerpoint? Sometimes I can, but now in the heat of the battle - no joy. Again, are there some strange conditions that need to be fulfilled before that happens. 

Maybe my problem is the use of HAD and not the HSD? Do I need to have that one up? And maybe I need to get more into the markpoints, to really get quick way to return to the target if I loose it...

The problem is - I do not know which one is bug and which one is me. F-16C feels already quite complete, but it is still early access, so I do not know. The same thing with older youtube videos, some things may have changed...

 

 

[Tholozor]

When you move the TGP around in the F-16, it introduces a slew delta (change) into the entire steerpoint system. To reset this, you must perform a Cursor Zero (CZ) command.

[sirrah]

41 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

When you move the TGP around in the F-16, it introduces a slew delta (change) into the entire steerpoint system. To reset this, you must perform a Cursor Zero (CZ) command.

Still training myself on the Viper systems so this may be a stupid question, but can using the AGM-65 WPN page on the MFD have a similar effect on the steerpoint system?

 

reason why I ask: I've been practicing my Mav skills on the 4YA servers lately, and pretty much in all my sessions I noticed all my steerpoints being way off on where they're supposed to be. I mean, really multiple miles away from where they should be. I haven't yet investigated thoroughly though. Perhaps it's INS drift (although that would be pretty extreme)

[Tholozor]

The Maverick can slave to the SPI in the system, but it can't move the SPI unless you're using VIS mode where you have a "pseudo-SPI" to slave the seeker based on where the aircraft is pointed. In PRE mode, the Maverick slaves to the SPI (which is basically the same location as the steerpoint, provided the slew deltas are Cursor Zeroed). If you're starting the aircraft cold and dark, the Maverick seekers needs to be boresighted as well so that they're aligned properly (not required for a hot start).

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Jyge:

I may get my target to a nice point track and I decide to go for mavericks instead of GBU38. If I switch then to PRE and stuff, the TPOD now points to whereever, but my nice little point track is gone and my target is again somewhere. How can I return there or how do I avoid this behaviour altogether?

If you have a PT with the TGP
and then select Maverick, PRE is the default mode that is directly active and the TGP slaves to the selected Steerpoint.
Then simply try "TDC Press" then bore and then VIS, the TGP should automatically jump back again.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Hobel

[Jyge]

3 hours ago, Tholozor said:

When you move the TGP around in the F-16, it introduces a slew delta (change) into the entire steerpoint system. To reset this, you must perform a Cursor Zero (CZ) command.

Ok, I pressed that also few times, but I still did not seem to get to waypoint. Maybe CZ then previous and next waypoint - does it matter here which sensor is SOI?

also do I or do I not need to have HSD up? I just realized that maybe HSD is the better aid for situational awareness that HAD, at least I should get around with markpoints

Edited December 21, 2024 by Jyge

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Jyge:

also do I or do I not need to have HSD up? I just realized that maybe HSD is the better aid for situational awareness that HAD, at least I should get around with markpoints

Personal taste.

I always have HSD on the right.

TGP and HAD are on the left and I switch with DMS as required.

[Jyge]

11 hours ago, Tholozor said:

The Maverick can slave to the SPI in the system, but it can't move the SPI unless you're using VIS mode where you have a "pseudo-SPI" to slave the seeker based on where the aircraft is pointed. In PRE mode, the Maverick slaves to the SPI (which is basically the same location as the steerpoint, provided the slew deltas are Cursor Zeroed). If you're starting the aircraft cold and dark, the Maverick seekers needs to be boresighted as well so that they're aligned properly (not required for a hot start).

Ok this might be the thing I was missing - strange - one did not need to bother with this in F/A-18, or anywhere for that matter. There are other strange illogical disconnects between the modules as well. For example A-10 and F-16 are consistent that when you have TGP as SOI and slew, you also see the box in HUD or helmet moving, in Hornet it does not update the position - I doubt this is correctly modeled in F/A-18.

Anyway, the boresighting seems to be a pain in the butt as you need an object or a target to do that. I doubt the ground will do as the stuff is simply too close but I'll give it a try, in the air I will hardly have time on those missions, it seems that I need a ground target and a lock for that...

 

[Tholozor]

26 minutes ago, Jyge said:

For example A-10 and F-16 are consistent that when you have TGP as SOI and slew, you also see the box in HUD or helmet moving, in Hornet it does not update the position - I doubt this is correctly modeled in F/A-18.

The A-10 and F-16 both use a similar SPI logic, the Hornet does not. In the 18, the FLIR pod must be the driving source of the TGT designation (denoted by a 'FLIR' mnemonic in the HUD), primarily through SCENE or AUTO tracking modes.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Tholozor

[Gilligan]

If you want to engage "targets of opportunity" in the viper you need to get familiar with the markpoint system - markpoints are a sub-type of steerpoint (Steer points 26-30) that you can createusing the aricrafts sensors, or by over-flying a spot on the map.

 

I like to either use the HUD/JHMCS if I find a target Visually, or the TGP if I want to save the location of a radar emitter (SAM site) in order to engage it with Mavs/Bombs or even Harms. 

 

The process is fairly simple 

If you want to use the HAD/TPOD:

Make sure you're in AG Mode

Find your Radar Emitter in the HAD screen, Switch to TPOD and refine the location 

Hit "7" on the ICP - you will see the symbology in the DED change to STPT 26 with the nav data for that point (usually zeros). You should also see some text indicating which sensor it's going to want you to use - HUD, TPOD, OFLY, etc. 

To use the HTS/TPOD make sure TPOD is selected.

Hit TMS up to enter point track, and TMS up again and you'll see the information for STPT 26 in the DED update with the current point the TPOD is looking at. 

Hit Zero on the ICP to set that created markpoint as the current steerpoint.

-

If you want to use the HUD or JHMCS make sure it shows HUD,  on the DED. If you're just using the HUD put circle you'll see in the HUD on the target and repeat the process above (TMS up twice). Press 0 to set it as the currently active steerpoint.

If you want to use the JHMCS hold TMS up LONG (like 3 seconds) and you'll see a big circle appear in your JHMCS symbology. Look at the spot on the ground where you want to put the markpoint, hit tms Up once to drop the circle (Ground stabilize). You can slew it a bit if you want to refine it, then hit TMS up a 2nd time to save it. Like before you'll see the coordinate info in the DED for that Markpoint.  Again, hit zero to make it your current steerpoint. 

 

Good luck.

[rob10]

8 hours ago, Jyge said:

Ok this might be the thing I was missing - strange - one did not need to bother with this in F/A-18, or anywhere for that matter. There are other strange illogical disconnects between the modules as well. For example A-10 and F-16 are consistent that when you have TGP as SOI and slew, you also see the box in HUD or helmet moving, in Hornet it does not update the position - I doubt this is correctly modeled in F/A-18.

To expand on what Tholozor said, these are planes made by competing companies for different military branches.  This is not a choice of ED deciding to make it different for a different aircraft just for variety.  They operate completely differently in the real world and that's why they are so different in DCS.  I find I stick to one aircraft because the whole workflow in the F-16 is sooooo different to the F-18.  In the real world that has very little impact because you're not going to jump back and forth so there is no reason for them all to be the same.  Different design philosophies by the manufacturers and likely the branch they are being designed/built for.

[Jyge]

14 hours ago, rob10 said:

In the real world that has very little impact because you're not going to jump back and forth so there is no reason for them all to be the same.  Different design philosophies by the manufacturers and likely the branch they are being designed/built for.

This is clear, however, in this particular case if you are able to point your TPOD using helmet or HUD and place the marker on the ground, the avionics are sure as h3ll able to do the opposite and update the marker position visualization on the ground if I make TGP SOI and start slewing, it is pretty important too to switch between viewing displays and the world outside - there is nothing philosophical there and no reason or rational whatsoever to leave out that to aid the effective operation. So yes, I am skeptical that this is the case in the reality. I have got pretty often confused as in "where did I just slew my TPOD to" - resetting and starting the target acquisition again from the point a is just not very efficient.

[Hobel]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb Jyge:

This is clear, however, in this particular case if you are able to point your TPOD using helmet or HUD and place the marker on the ground, the avionics are sure as h3ll able to do the opposite and update the marker position visualization on the ground if I make TGP SOI and start slewing, it is pretty important too to switch between viewing displays and the world outside - there is nothing philosophical there and no reason or rational whatsoever to leave out that to aid the effective operation. So yes, I am skeptical that this is the case in the reality. I have got pretty often confused as in "where did I just slew my TPOD to" - resetting and starting the target acquisition again from the point a is just not very efficient.

It would be interesting to see a track or video to judge your operation. because the way you describe it basically works. Actually, everything is there for efficient and fast use, especially in the F16.

 

Zitat

in HUD or helmet moving, in Hornet it does not update the position - I doubt this is correctly modeled in F/A-18.

I'm surprised as it wasn't always like this. It's also strange that the point is updated on the SA/HSD page but not in the HUD?

Edited December 23, 2024 by Hobel

[Phantom711]

@Hobel 

Not at home right now, but I‘m pretty sure in the Hornet the TGP box will get updated in the HUD as well. Maybe one needs to designate via TDC depress before it‘s updated, which kinda makes sense though.

[Czar66]

16 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

Maybe one needs to designate via TDC depress before it‘s updated

If you're reffering to the TGT diamond, half correct. Once you press TDC, the diamond is updated live and as you slew the TPOD on both. the HUD and HMD. If you press 'undesignate', it goes away.

Here it is how it behaves on the HUD and after pressing 'undesignate' removing ground stabilization.

Time Stamps:

ATFLIR on right DDI. SCS to the right to select the right DDI.

0:00 ATFLIR is ground stabilized with TDC press.
0:12 'undesignate' button is pressed. ATFLIR is not ground stabilized anymore locked into an azimuth/elevation in relation to the plane. Cross symbology is shown.
0:22 TDC is pressed. ATFLIR regained ground stabilization and a new TGT is set.
0:25 'undesignate' button is pressed once again and TGT is lost.
0:28 looking to the right with the HMD. 'SCS' Forward to bring up the aiming reticle.
0:29 TDC is pressed and a new TGT is set where the HMD reticle was and the ATFLIR is pointing right at it.
0:30... further slewing of the ATFLIR.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Czar66

[Jyge]

18 hours ago, Czar66 said:

If you're reffering to the TGT diamond, half correct. Once you press TDC, the diamond is updated live and as you slew the TPOD on both. the HUD and HMD. If you press 'undesignate', it goes away.

Here it is how it behaves on the HUD and after pressing 'undesignate' removing ground stabilization.

Thanks for the clarification, would be cool if you could give some timestamps, where you did what. I see that in the beginning the TGP seems to be SOI and it is then ground stabilized. Not sure again where one can identify that I get lost with the different TGP symbologies and usage (Harrier which I played recently few campaigns is again a story of its own, everything is lightening TGPs but there are significant differences).

Somewhere around 12s you undesignate and the whole caret goes away? 

The thing is that it is now couple of months since I played F/A-18 campaign and it is just in the back of my mind. BUT I think that if you have snowplow on and designate or you designate with HMD and then switch TGP as SOI, you do not get updates on HUD nor on HMD when you start slewing. I might be mistaken here and I try to check it out as soon as possible. It's getting a bit OT or wrong forum section, but it is nevertheless rather informative.

EDIT: I ran some tests. I assume that you actually used ATFLIR in your example. My perception was coming from LITENING. AFAICS ATFLIR really updates the HUD caret if it is a SOI and I am slewing, however, LITENING does not. If it is SOI and I slew I see no updates on HUD or HMS, only if I press the TDC it updates the position on the HUD  momentarily, if I keep on slewing it does not follow. I primarily play offline campaigns and I think that LITENING is by far the more common TGP used in F/A-18 campaigns. I am actually not sure, how it is in reality...

Edited December 28, 2024 by Jyge

[Czar66]

51 minutes ago, Jyge said:

Thanks for the clarification, would be cool if you could give some timestamps, where you did what. I see that in the beginning the TGP seems to be SOI and it is then ground stabilized. Not sure again where one can identify that I get lost with the different TGP symbologies and usage (Harrier which I played recently few campaigns is again a story of its own, everything is lightening TGPs but there are significant differences).

Somewhere around 12s you undesignate and the whole caret goes away? 

Time stamps added. Yeah, the ATFLIR is a tad different but you just want to follow the caret/diamond to check if it is ground stabilized or not. Once you get going with it, it's hard to forget, no worries.

57 minutes ago, Jyge said:

The thing is that it is now couple of months since I played F/A-18 campaign and it is just in the back of my mind. BUT I think that if you have snowplow on and designate or you designate with HMD and then switch TGP as SOI, you do not get updates on HUD nor on HMD when you start slewing.

IDK. That's something to check out.

Just to get something added to the actual plane the thread is related. On the Viper, there is a constant designation/nav shift whenever you move a sensor, hence the need of the CZ. Which is completely different from the Hornet where your plane creates a new point, hence why it is a bit misleading when using the same workflow on both.

[Jyge]

1 hour ago, Czar66 said:

Time stamps added. Yeah, the ATFLIR is a tad different but you just want to follow the caret/diamond to check if it is ground stabilized or not. Once you get going with it, it's hard to forget, no worries.

Great, thanks. Meanwhile, I missed your reply and did some edit above. I was actually talking about LITENING, also on Hornet. It seems to be different in F/A-18, there the caret live update seems to be missing (if TGP is SOI).

[Phantom711]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jyge:

I primarily play offline campaigns and I think that LITENING is by far the more common TGP used in F/A-18 campaigns. I am actually not sure, how it is in reality...

The US Navy uses the ATFLIR because the LITENING II is not rated for carrier operations. 
USMC and foreign nations usually use the LITENING TGP.

[Czar66]

4 hours ago, Jyge said:

EDIT: I ran some tests. I assume that you actually used ATFLIR in your example. My perception was coming from LITENING. AFAICS ATFLIR really updates the HUD caret if it is a SOI and I am slewing, however, LITENING does not. If it is SOI and I slew I see no updates on HUD or HMS, only if I press the TDC it updates the position on the HUD  momentarily, if I keep on slewing it does not follow. I primarily play offline campaigns and I think that LITENING is by far the more common TGP used in F/A-18 campaigns. I am actually not sure, how it is in reality...

As Phantom711 pointed above. ATFLIR is for carrier ops, Litenings are usually used by USMC and foreign forces to the US in airfield based ops. If you want to follow historical realistic payload, use ATFLIR on carriers and Litening for everything else. Litening pods internals are not rated for carrier ops, literature on this is on the internet and perhaps in the manual, but you're free to chose.

Back to the HUD and HMD symbology, I guess that is correct about the LITENING on the Hornet as its operation differs from the ATFLIR in DCS. IDK about IRL, but the focus is to get going working in the sim and to clear confusion.