F14B and A real standard climb, cruise and descent speeds ?

[Kobal]

Hi,

Could anyone give me the Tomcat real standards climb, cruise and descent speeds please ?

[DD_Fenrir]

Assuming that you are looking for non-combat administrative flying?

As a rule, 300KIAS @ 5000lbs/hr fuel flow for climb.

Cruise we aim for 350KIAS @ 3500 - 4000lbs/hr.

Descent is not really prescribed; if it’s a descent to the boat, the max limiting airspeed is defined by whether you have the hook down and it’s Vne is supposed to be 350 KIAS, though this was regularly exceeded according to aircrew accounts of breaking the deck at 400+ knots.

 

[Kobal]

Hi Fenrir,

Thank you for your answer, could you confirm theres rules are IRL rules ? Because I'm looking for the real ones.

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, Kobal said:

Hi Fenrir,

Thank you for your answer, could you confirm theres rules are IRL rules ? Because I'm looking for the real ones.

These are the parameters used by us in VF-103 (part of virtual CVW-17) and have been gleaned from discussions with former Naval Aviators, specifically an ex-Tomcat pilot and former RIO. Bear in mind some procedures could vary slightly from squadron to squadron or changed during the Tomcats 30+ years of service.

[Kobal]

Ok, thank you, and rules for combat flight (full fuel, external tanks and 4x AIM7 and 4xAIM9 for example) ?

And second question,what is your afterburner cutoff speed after take-off for F14A ?

Edited December 27, 2024 by Kobal

[DD_Fenrir]

5 hours ago, Kobal said:

Ok, thank you, and rules for combat flight (full fuel, external tanks and 4x AIM7 and 4xAIM9 for example) ?

And second question,what is your afterburner cutoff speed after take-off for F14A ?

Combat is whatever is appropriate tactically at any given moment. For launching Sparrows BVR I would recommend being as close to or above Mach 1 as possible, whereas being that fast at the merge could limit your ability to get your nose around fast enough. In that case you really want to be in the vicinity of your corner speed (~320 - 350 KIAS depending on loadout and fuel weight) if your gameplan is to two-circle your opponent. If one-circle is your preferred then you’ll need to be down at ~250 KIAS at entry.

For the launch, if you’re flying a case I departure (flying along brc for 7nm at 500 ft) then you get to 300 KIAS as soon as possible and then adjust power accordingly.

Edited December 27, 2024 by DD_Fenrir

[Rhrich]

If anyone’s interested I would assume they could check Natops?

I would be surprised if what Kobal asked for is a fixed given airspeed and I would not recommend anyone using that. 

In my time we usually used AOA, and I would assume that is still used as its eminently suited in most situations. 
But as I’ve stated before, I’m old, my knowledge might be outdated or I might confuse stuff. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Rhrich

[RustBelt]

17 hours ago, Kobal said:

Hi Fenrir,

Thank you for your answer, could you confirm theres rules are IRL rules ? Because I'm looking for the real ones.

If you want real, you gotta go get the NATOPS publications and run the charts like a real live boy. 

NAVAIR 01-F14AAA-1.1

NAVAIR 01-F14AAP-1.1

Gotta search em, we can’t post em here.

Rule of thumb speeds are not “official” 

Edited December 28, 2024 by RustBelt

[Ivandrov]

I fly the AoA as well. There was a image shared by Victory205 around here that also showed things based on AoA. Those numbers usually bring me well below 300 KIAS for cruise.

About 8 units for range, 5 units for a powered climb. Roughly following the marks on the AoA gauge. Descents can be as high as 10 depending on if you are going for max range descents or not. This changes slightly with drag index and which altitude block you are in, but these rules of thumb work for me.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Ivandrov

[Kobal]

Thank you guys for your answers, I read the NATOPS, there is performance charts but not the standard climb procedure, these datas must be in another documentation. Many jets after take off have to maintain a pitch around 10° to maintain indicated speed until Mach conjunction point around FL150 and maintain that Mach number (because the indicated airspeed falls) until the cruise level. These datas  are the ones I want to find. I know the AOA index but I think they are not standard index but like the 8° one is an AOA index for the max endurance cruise by preserving fuel but not a standard. I think the standard cruise speed must be around Mach 0.85 or 0.9 but I may be wrong and maybe everything is done through the AOA in Tomcat,. I think only real F14 pilots like Victory205 or RIOs could provide us that kind of information. Standard climb, cruise and descent procedures.

 

ps: It is clearly written in the F4 flight manual for example, pitch around 10° to maintain 350 IAS to Mach 0.9.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Kobal

[Ivandrov]

9 hours ago, Kobal said:

Thank you guys for your answers, I read the NATOPS, there is performance charts but not the standard climb procedure, these datas must be in another documentation. Many jets after take off have to maintain a pitch around 10° to maintain indicated speed until Mach conjunction point around FL150 and maintain that Mach number (because the indicated airspeed falls) until the cruise level. These datas  are the ones I want to find. I know the AOA index but I think they are not standard index but like the 8° one is an AOA index for the max endurance cruise by preserving fuel but not a standard. I think the standard cruise speed must be around Mach 0.85 or 0.9 but I may be wrong and maybe everything is done through the AOA in Tomcat,. I think only real F14 pilots like Victory205 or RIOs could provide us that kind of information. Standard climb, cruise and descent procedures.

 

ps: It is clearly written in the F4 flight manual for example, pitch around 10° to maintain 350 IAS to Mach 0.9.

Well, those numbers that I mentioned came from Victory205 and the chart he shared from the NATOPS.

It's was all based in AoA and the cruise speed you mentioned is way too high at low altitudes. The AoA is a function of weight, altitude among other things that affects cruise regime which is why it is used.

[Nealius]

AoA gauge has a marker for optimum climb AoA. It's shaped like a rectangle, and is somewhere around the 5 unit mark. There's also a triangle at around the 8 unit mark that's optimum AoA for either max conserve or max endurance, I don't recall which.

[Ivandrov]

8 unit mark is cruise. Endurance is at 10 units for all altitudes and drag indices. Although for high altitudes you may have to force the manuever flaps back up by holding the thumbwheel or you may not be able to maintain speed.

On 12/29/2024 at 10:35 PM, Nealius said:

AoA gauge has a marker for optimum climb AoA. It's shaped like a rectangle, and is somewhere around the 5 unit mark. There's also a triangle at around the 8 unit mark that's optimum AoA for either max conserve or max endurance, I don't recall which.

 

Edited January 4 by Ivandrov

[Nealius]

I've never quite understood the distinction between max conserve and max endurance, as endurance is a natural byproduct of conserving fuel, and conserving fuel is a natural byproduct of high endurance. What's the practical difference between the two?

[Ivandrov]

9 minutes ago, Nealius said:

I've never quite understood the distinction between max conserve and max endurance, as endurance is a natural byproduct of conserving fuel, and conserving fuel is a natural byproduct of high endurance. What's the practical difference between the two?

Max conserve has to do with extending range of flight as far as possible. Max endurance extends the time of flight as much as possible.

 

When you actually need to get somewhere the speed at which you get there becomes an important factor. If you spend a little more fuel for a little more speed, then the range at which you can fly can increase even when your overall time of flight decreases.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Ivandrov

[Spurts]

max range cruise is going to be 0.74M for a clean jet and 0.72M for a dirty jet, small window, and the altitude is going to be whatever gives you cruise AoA but will typically be between 30,000 and 34,000ft.  Much higher than that and you honestly get too low of an IAS.  The goal is to stay at speed where the sweep is still full forward to get best L/D. The throttle setting is whatever you need to hold there but should be 2400-2800pph per engine.  I took a 105% max weight F-14B 1,000nm across the Marianas map (from a "dead" carrier to a functioning carrier) and still had 5,000lb of fuel remaining when I overflew the landing carrier at cruise alts (no descent was made until the 1,000nm was finished).

[Nealius]

Ah, I'm getting terminology confused. The 8.5 unit marker is, per NATOPS, "cruise AoA," but in modern terminology that equates to max conserve?

[Spurts]

No, 8.5 is max range, not max conserve.  Max conserve is the 15 unit marker and requires manual holding up of the maneuver flaps. You do not "Cruise" in max conserve (minimum fuel flow), that is for loitering over an area.

[sLYFa]

Max conserve should be 10 units, 15 is for approach which is way beyond optimum L/D.

[Spurts]

Thanks for the correction @sLYFa I would have thought approach would be max L/D, or maybe that is for the landing config which is NOT cruise config.

[sLYFa]

Approach AoA is basically the highest AoA you can fly safely to ensure low landing speeds, L/D ratio is not important in that case. IIRC they initially had 17 units for approach but reduced to 15 due to visibility issues.

[Spurts]

Being at an AoA higher than L/D presents handling issues

[Ivandrov]

13 hours ago, Spurts said:

No, 8.5 is max range, not max conserve.  Max conserve is the 15 unit marker and requires manual holding up of the maneuver flaps. You do not "Cruise" in max conserve (minimum fuel flow), that is for loitering over an area.

Whatever Max Conserve is to you, (I've seen it used many ways) it is definitely not at 15 units.

The terminology in the Tomcat is Cruise and Endurance. Endurance is at 10 units.

Edited January 4 by Ivandrov

[Spurts]

No no, I was wondering if 15 units was L/D max for the landing configuration. But 17 or higher is more likely. 

 

Sorry. I just noticed you were referencing an earlier post. Yes I was corrected on max conserve aoa.

Edited January 4 by Spurts

[Nealius]

If 8.5 isn't for cruising then why the hell is it called "cruise" in NATOPS?