1985 vs 2005 - aka will the DCS: F-15C allow us to disable modern features?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Hello,

 

As far as I understand, MSIP II F-15Cs were already around in the mid-‘80s - though few of them, and they were deployed to Desert Storm as well.

Can someone clarify how a ‘80s MSIP II bird differs from a mid-2000s one? Is it just weapons and JHMCS and datalink, or something else as well?

Will we be reliably be able to turn off modern features in order to simulate a late ‘80s - early ‘90s F-15C?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 20 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
edited the title for clarification

[minty1fighter]

15s are done in suites, so its probably a later suite 

[T.Power]

As we're getting a full fidelity Mig-29 this makes sense, which is more than I can say for the waste of space F-35A.

[TotenDead]

4 минуты назад, T.Power сказал:

As we're getting a full fidelity Mig-29 this makes sense, which is more than I can say for the waste of space F-35A.

Mid 2000s tech against the 80s MiG-29 makes a limited amount of sense.

 

 

41 минуту назад, Raven (Elysian Angel) сказал:

Will we be reliably be able to turn off modern features in order to simulate a late ‘80s - early ‘90s F-15C?

That's a good question, but with a predictable answer

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 minutes ago, T.Power said:

waste of space F-35A

I agree with you, but let’s not dirty this subforum with that.

The question still stands though: I heard that at some point the cockpit was updated but that was very late in its career (so probably later than mid-2000s.

So if the difference is just in software (and thus weapon support), I’m a happy bunny: I want to at least be able to reliably pretend to be in a 1991-1994 Eagle

[F-2]

It’s mostly 80s hardware with 2000s software. MSIP II was always the most logical choice. The biggest difference between this and earlier MSIP II is data link.

It’s mostly 80s hardware with 2000s software. MSIP II was always the most logical choice. The biggest difference between this and earlier MSIP II is data link.

[Keith Briscoe]

With the Iraq map, I sure hope there could be a way to use a 1991 spec F-15c.

[AMRAAM_Missiles]

1991 F-15C is just the MSIP-II F-15C with the AIM-120A only.

Some of the early MSIP-II bird didn't even have the MPCD and new stick when they were deployed.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yeah I'm fine with MSIP II really. An F-15A would have been nice too but given the general audience in DCS the -C makes much more sense. And it’s not FBW so I’m happy.

ED have stated they have no intention to bring the AIM-120A to DCS, so we’ll have to do with 2x AIM-9M, 2x -120B and 4 -7M(H) for early ‘90s CAPs over Iraq.

I don’t understand why the AIM-7P was mentioned in the FAQ since that’s a Navy-only weapon as far as I know.

[F-2]

16 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yeah I'm fine with MSIP II really. An F-15A would have been nice too but given the general audience in DCS the -C makes much more sense. And it’s not FBW so I’m happy.

ED have stated they have no intention to bring the AIM-120A to DCS, so we’ll have to do with 2x AIM-9M, 2x -120B and 4 -7M(H) for early ‘90s CAPs over Iraq.

I don’t understand why the AIM-7P was mentioned in the FAQ since that’s a Navy-only weapon as far as I know.

The good thing though is for DCS purposes AIM-120A and B are indistinguishable.

 

 

AIM-7P was never used operationally on the F-15C but it was cleared to carry it. I wonder if the manual ED is using reflects that? 

[bies]

I hope they make both variants;

• original MISPII from late 1980s/Desert Storm, given the plethora of late cold war modules including MiG-29 9.12, Tornado IDS, F-14, A-6, A-7, Su-17, Mi-24 and many more. And maps like Iraq for 1991 Desert Storm and late Cold War Fulda Gap. When the Eagle was the ultimete apex predator.
• and mid-2000s more modern variant (if sufficiently declassified) F-15C with Link-16, JHMCS etc. to fit our Hornet and Viper.

But if only one would be possible i would obvioulsy prefer originial 1980s/Desert Storm MSIP II.

 

 

Edited January 17 by bies

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, Keith Briscoe said:

With the Iraq map, I sure hope there could be a way to use a 1991 spec F-15c.

Maybe they will have an option to turn off the DL. That would generally help alot in DCS. But devs don't generally implement turning things off.

And it really just fits that "no opfor" space in DCS which I don't really fathom why its actually popular.

Like period F15 from the early 80's vs the mig29 seems like a better choice TBH. 

 

Edited January 17 by Harlikwin

[Spurts]

AIM-120 was not operational during Desert Storm, that was all Sparrows and Sidewinders.

[F-2]

4 minutes ago, Spurts said:

AIM-120 was not operational during Desert Storm, that was all Sparrows and Sidewinders.

That is actually surprisingly not true. The 33rd had 52 AIm-120A for scud hunting

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=cNTioltU3N4C&pg=PA430&dq=amraam+carry+gulf+war&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiaxZrIgdGDAxU5GTQIHedZADQQ6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=amraam carry gulf war&f=false

 

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/f-15-eagles-were-the-deadliest-birds-of-desert-storm/

[Spurts]

Captive Carry only per the source, they were not operational

[F-2]

7 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Captive Carry only per the source, they were not operational

https://books.google.com/books?id=MAeRbHvUd0MC&pg=PA88&dq=amraam+33rd+gulf+war&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTtMbI0fuKAxVlg4kEHRSbLR84ChDoAXoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=amraam 33rd gulf war&f=false
 

some more here seems to heavily imply they were useable.

[Harlikwin]

21 minutes ago, F-2 said:

That is actually surprisingly not true. The 33rd had 52 AIm-120A for scud hunting

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=cNTioltU3N4C&pg=PA430&dq=amraam+carry+gulf+war&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiaxZrIgdGDAxU5GTQIHedZADQQ6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=amraam carry gulf war&f=false

 

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/f-15-eagles-were-the-deadliest-birds-of-desert-storm/

Yeah never used tho. 

3 hours ago, Keith Briscoe said:

With the Iraq map, I sure hope there could be a way to use a 1991 spec F-15c.

Yeah would be nice. 

[bies]

5 hours ago, Spurts said:

AIM-120 was not operational during Desert Storm, that was all Sparrows and Sidewinders.

AIM-120 was during final evaluation between 1988-1991, USAF didn't use it in combat during Desert Storm, even though they sent them to Iraq.

But it doen't matter - it would use AIM-120 or not per mission/campaign creator choice.

What matters is Link-16, JHMCS, APG-63v(1) as those may or may not be possible to disable by mission creator to make it suitable for late Cold War/Desert Storm.

 

 

Edited January 17 by bies

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, bies said:

AIM-120 was during final evaluation between 1988-1991, USAF didn't use it in combat during Desert Storm, even though they sent them to Iraq.

But it doen't matter - it would use AIM-120 or not per mission/campaign creator choice.

What matters is Link-16, JHMCS, APG-63v(1) as those may or may not be possible to disable by mission creator to make it suitable for late Cold War/Desert Storm.

 

 

You can disable emissions in the editor to help simulate earlier eras, I've done with with the Viper.

You still have those pages in the cockpit though, 'shrug' so it's not a perfect solution. 

 

I'm a fan of earlier eras as well, earlier block/pre-data link, pre AIM-120 etc etc but DCS seems to favor max digital bush-buttony workflow jets.

I'm scared that AH-1Z info will become available before they get the Whisky developed because I'm sure they'd divert.

 

 

 

Edited January 17 by Gambit21

[F-2]

4 hours ago, bies said:

AIM-120 was during final evaluation between 1988-1991, USAF didn't use it in combat during Desert Storm, even though they sent them to Iraq.

But it doen't matter - it would use AIM-120 or not per mission/campaign creator choice.

What matters is Link-16, JHMCS, APG-63v(1) as those may or may not be possible to disable by mission creator to make it suitable for late Cold War/Desert Storm.

 

 

I can’t speak for the helmet or Datalink but I don’t think apg-63(v)1 should be noticeable different to the pilot.

[TotenDead]

1 час назад, Gambit21 сказал:

I'm a fan of earlier eras as well, earlier block/pre-data link, pre AIM-120 etc etc but DCS seems to favor max digital bush-buttony workflow jets.

That's a necessity caused by past decisions. I hate to bring War thunder example here, but look how that game evolved: it made a long way from early jets to modern-ish ones. Each generation (or even half of it) added introduced a top dog premium (which is basicaly an analog of dcs modules paywall wise) which saled accordingly. 

DCS, on the other hand, jumped straight to mid 2000s stuff which makes planes like F-15A/ early F-16/18s undesirable compared to their modern versions

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Wags, I think it was you who put the tag on this thread... Thanks but that's not the point at all. I know the era you plan to model the F-15C after since I read the FAQ. My question was if there will be a proper way to model an early '90s bird, and how it differs from that era. To my understanding the cockpit stayed exactly the same (apparently RL pilots complained about that).

[twistking]

If there's no way to "dial it back" to a 80s/90s version than i'm not that interested.
With the Cold War Germany map on the horizon, why would anyone be interested in yet another 2000s aircraft...

[SuperKermit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb twistking:

If there's no way to "dial it back" to a 80s/90s version than i'm not that interested.
With the Cold War Germany map on the horizon, why would anyone be interested in yet another 2000s aircraft...

Exactly, same here.

I would much prefer a version that replicates a Cold War gone hot scenario. To me the F-15 is the pinnacle of fighter design of that era. And that ended  - at least per my definition - with the fall of the Berlin Wall in '89.

The addition of all the later developments just dilutes this experience.

Edited January 17 by SuperKermit

[Harlikwin]

4 hours ago, F-2 said:

I can’t speak for the helmet or Datalink but I don’t think apg-63(v)1 should be noticeable different to the pilot.

Yeah... I honestly don't know why its so hard to add a tick box to disable stuff like JHMCs or DL for devs. It would make the plane a ton more popular across more eras that it doesn't quite fit in, instead of server owners trying various hacks to make stuff fit. It would be a nice "nod" to the community TBH. 

44 minutes ago, SuperKermit said:

Exactly, same here.

I would much prefer a version that replicates a Cold War gone hot scenario. To me the F-15 is the pinnacle of fighter design of that era. And that ended  - at least per my definition - with the fall of the Berlin Wall in '89.

The addition of all the later developments just dilutes this experience.

Yeah same... Like a F15A for the early 80's vs the mig29 would be at least a realistic matchup. A 2005 F15C with DL/HMCS and the bells and whistles vs a 1983 at best mig29 with well, lemme see, a seat cushion I guess. Isn't exactly the best matchup. Though I know redfor guys will make the best of it. 

Edited January 17 by Harlikwin