Radar Cross section modeling

[Northstar98]

Just going to leave this here:

[okopanja]

56 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Just going to leave this here:

Youtuber got the story to large degree right, but nothing better than a direct source: 

https://www.vojnaknjizara.com/shop/padenie-nocnogo-яstreba-slavisa-golubovic/

Each crew member has an interview there, at least 2-4 pages each. This is interesting since it covers the P-18 radar, but also inside the radar crew cabin. It dives into the details on how the workflow in SA-3 SAM goes. 

Also provided is a section discussing popular myths, and which were true and which not. 

Author did promise to publish English edition of the book, however this did not happen yet. 

His interview is here: 

Another book was published by another crew member, but IMHO the author is controversial, since he tried to claim the kill for himself while he was late for duty, so his book is geared toward that story. Needless to say: the first author had to exclude the testimony of the second guy due to their personal dispute.

 

 

Edited June 16 by okopanja

[Pilum]

Very interesting stuff @Northstar98 and @okopanja. Years ago I met a German Luftwaffe officer who came by our booth at an airshow and we started talking about the conflict. He was very impressed with the professionalism of the Serbian Air Defense forces and said that although they (NATO) made every effort to catch these batteries once they had started emitting, they were always long gone by the time any strike package got there.

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, NytHawk said:

Any SAM system will be able to detect a LO aircraft flying close enough without any EW support if it flies close enough.

The details of the F-117 shootdown incident are still murky anyways. There are claims of the F-117s weapons bays being open at/or just before the shootdown, and it is known that quite a few Serbian S-125 systems had radars upgraded to SNR-125M1T specification which had an Infrared sensor and Laser rangefinder which could definitely guide a missile towards an F117.

 

Hopefully we'll learn more soon knowing that F-35s were used in the recent Strikes against Iran, likely flying within Iranian airspace. However I don't feel like this is the time/place to discuss this much further here.

Yeah I'm not going to get into much with classified information. It's nothing I really need to know right now, and more focused on how ED is going to handle it. I mean there's probably some kind of thought with the programmers, so we'll have to wait and see.

[WHOGX5]

There is a VSD (Vertical Situation Display) page in the F-35 which will actually show your ownship RCS in real time in relation to threats, as knowing your ownship RCS characteristics is pretty pretty important for stealth based tactics and remaining undetected. With the current RCS implementation in DCS where it's basically just a flat value, the F-35 in particular will either be given a very low RCS value and be undetectable at a lot of distances and aspects where it shouldn't be, or it'll be given a higher RCS value and be detectable at distances and aspects it shouldn't be. This is why DCS needs a polar RCS model, where aircraft will actually have different RCS depending on aspect, both for stealth and non-stealth aircraft, and you can find tonnes of studies online on RCS and aspect, with both experimental and simulated tests on many different airframes, which can be used as a starting point.

For example, in a combat scenario where the enemy has multiple aircraft coming at an F-35 from many different directions, where they might have multiple ground based air search radars in different locations, especially when information is shared between these assets via datalink, it might actually make it quite difficult or even impossible for an F-35 to operate undetected and greatly decrease its advantage against inferior aircraft, leveling the playing field. A DCS F-35 pilot would actually have to use planning, tactics and pick his battles in order to retain all the advantages that stealth provides. Without proper RCS modelling in DCS, the F-35 will probably just steamroll everything in every single scenario regardless of the skill and tactics of its pilot.

You can see the VSD in action in Military History Visualized's video where he flies an F-35 simulator at some airshow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88vCjQ8fCb0

Normal configuration:

During missile launch with weapon bay doors open:

Edited July 9 by WHOGX5

[draconus]

1 hour ago, WHOGX5 said:

With the current RCS implementation in DCS where it's basically just a flat value

That depends on the module's radar implementation. Afaik F-15E and M-2000C have aspect-based RCS implemented. Idk about stores' RCS or roll angle dependance.

[Dragon1-1]

I think it should be quite possible to calculate RCS dynamically on configuration change. Algorithms are out there, and they don't have to be real time, nobody cares if the RCS updates a few miliseconds after the plane drops its payload.

[NytHawk]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I think it should be quite possible to calculate RCS dynamically on configuration change. Algorithms are out there, and they don't have to be real time, nobody cares if the RCS updates a few miliseconds after the plane drops its payload.

I mean being fair, as long as RCS is dependent on aspect... you can get away with only having two states; WBD open and WBD closed with a gradual transition between them.

Sure flight control position is also a notable factor, but its nowhere near as major as aspect/WBD status.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Remember that both the F-35 and other fighters (this mechanic should be applied across the board) can also have external stores. Flight control position won't really matter, but external stores would, both pylons, racks and actual weapons all have their own RCS.

[NytHawk]

Just now, Dragon1-1 said:

Remember that both the F-35 and other fighters (this mechanic should be applied across the board) can also have external stores. Flight control position won't really matter, but external stores would, both pylons, racks and actual weapons all have their own RCS.

Of course