Best place and aircraft to learn IFR?

[MAXsenna]

22 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

The hard part is knowing what to look for. Ill put that in the youtube player for some review later!

Im familiar with VOR/DME, m just not familiar with what the F-4E has AT ALL...its also one of the things that put me off the Tomcat of all aircraft. Pilots nowadays have it good, I recognize that...but navigating by HSI and VOR/TACAN with offsets is a survival skill and Im trying to learn the hard way!

Did you have a look at this? 

 

 

 

[ThePops]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Did you have a look at this?

Interesting, but that's good old VFR with a little help from Jester in the back with his INS  

[MAXsenna]

Interesting, but that's good old VFR with a little help from Jester in the back with his INS  

Ah, right. I didn't watch the video yet.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[IvanK]

The technique on the HSI/RMI/BDHI The TACAN station is always at the centre of the instrument.

Step 1 decide what Range and bearing you want to go to.

Step 2 note your current range and bearing on the HSI .... you are at the tail of the needle.

Step 2 In your mind take the greater of the ranges (current range versus new range)

Step 3 visualize the HSI as a map whose diameter is the greater range

Step 4 Locate your current position on the (scaled map HSI) use your finger

Step 5 draw a line from your current position on the HSI to the point you want to go through.

Step 6 transfer the line you drew in Step 5 to be centered on the HSI The line now extends to show the Track you need to fly to get to your new destination.

Step 7 Turn on to the required Track/Heading .... update the process as you go along.

Once proficient this process can be done in seconds with good accuracy.

An example:

[Hammer1-1]

5 hours ago, ThePops said:

It's also a matter of what a "fix" really is. If it's given as lat-long coordinates as in the ME, then good luck translating that to bearing and distance vs a TACAN station without a map or some "black box magic"   In modern jets lat/long coordinates makes sense, because this is what modern not ancient avionics understand. Nevertheless lat/long is simply too abstract, cryptic and error prone also for everyday civilian use. IFR waypoints are used instead. Even for VFR (which is completely "random" flying), the best way to report your position to ATC when asked, is distance and bearing (in S, SW, W etc) relative a IFR waypoint. 

This is the problem I face in the F4E takeoff and navigation tutorial. I vaguely remember how the TACAN works and radials and it snapped into place with me last night after I finished my last post (overthinking again), but yeah that still comes back to the HOW they navigate to LAT/LONG coordinates rather than TACAN. Can you even input LAT/LONG in the pilot seat? I havent really dug into the F4 yet.

[Hammer1-1]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Did you have a look at this? 

 

 

 

Ive been paying attention to it, definitely going to be getting it...but playing it? Not for a while.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, IvanK said:

The technique on the HSI/RMI/BDHI The TACAN station is always at the centre of the instrument.

Step 1 decide what Range and bearing you want to go to.

Step 2 note your current range and bearing on the HSI .... you are at the tail of the needle.

Step 2 In your mind take the greater of the ranges (current range versus new range)

Step 3 visualize the HSI as a map whose diameter is the greater range

Step 4 Locate your current position on the (scaled map HSI) use your finger

Step 5 draw a line from your current position on the HSI to the point you want to go through.

Step 6 transfer the line you drew in Step 5 to be centered on the HSI The line now extends to show the Track you need to fly to get to your new destination.

Step 7 Turn on to the required Track/Heading .... update the process as you go along.

Once proficient this process can be done in seconds with good accuracy.

An example:

Is this saying "if I want 30nm east of tacan x, translate that to 30 degrees offset to your current heading north to the tacan @ 60nm away"?

[IvanK]

Here is another example on the F5E HSI.

TAC tuned you are on the 129radial 20 nm from the TACAN

You want to track to the TACAN 240 radial 60nm what nil wind heading do you need to fly.

1. Visualise the TACAN station as at the centre of the HSI

2. Determine the greatest range value required .... 60nm

3. Visulise the the outer portion of the compass scale as 60nm from the centre of the HSI

4. Locate your position on the HSI assuming its radius is 60nm ..... Position red X (about 1/3 out from the centre on the 129 radial)

5. Find the location on the HSI where you want to go 240/60 ..... Position yellow X

6. Draw a line from your position to the new position. Red x to Yellow x

7. Transfer the line you drew to be centered on the HSI  Green line.

8. Were it intersects the compass is the nil wind heading to fly 254.

9. Turn on to 254.

10. update as you track towards the new position.

Edited March 10 by IvanK

[ThePops]

  

8 hours ago, IvanK said:

with good accuracy

As vise men have said. To pick a course to your destination, you first have to know where you are  This also means that if you know where you are at any given time (as you do with TACAN), then the accuracy of your initial course isn't all that important. You check and adjust as you go. The main issue isn't accuracy but work load. With the offset function and autopilot of the F1, the work load is almost removed entirely. With GNSS/INS (and autopilot) in more modern fighters it's gone completely. In VFR conditions, this isn't a such a big issue when the pilot has studied the map, but in IMC it's a completely different ball game.

Today, we have to wonder how they managed without modern navigation technology. The point is, many didn't. Accidents happened all the time. Pilot errors? sure, but the main issue was saturation of work load.

It's super cool that in DCS we can simulate this  That figure 12-13 and the explanations really should be included in every module manual for an aircraft with TACAN.

[Bremspropeller]

Thanks a lot for the illustrative examples, Ivan!

40 minutes ago, ThePops said:

Today, we have to wonder how they managed without modern navigation technology. The point is, many didn't. Accidents happened all the time. Pilot errors? sure, but the main issue was saturation of work load.

Spot on!

[TheFreshPrince]

How did noone mention L39? It even has the IFR hood so you can't see anything except the instruments.

[Hammer1-1]

I dont know, I rarely even look at that aircraft too. I might look into that, but Im more interested in the tutorials concerning IFR using just the HSI and VOR/TAC. Im not too familiar with the red sides radio functions; hell Im still learning that in the Mi24.

[Picchio]

On 3/9/2025 at 11:35 PM, IvanK said:

An example:

Where does this picture come from?

[Hammer1-1]

9 hours ago, Picchio said:

Where does this picture come from?

judging from the aircraft they use on the HSI, its an old training video for B-58 crews. I seem to recall these images from some old B-58 training videos Ive watched on youtube once upon a time.

[IvanK]

Old Military instrument flying manual

[IvanK]

It is also fully described in the these publicly available manuals:

USN NATOPS Instrument Flying manual NAVAIR 00-80T-112 Pages 22-14 through -16

USAF AFMAN11-217V1 Instrument Flight Procedures pages 69-71

Edited March 15 by IvanK

[Aquorys]

On 3/8/2025 at 4:47 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

Guess I can simplify that question to how can I navigate from my current position using only the HSI and TACAN to get to TACAN X with the appropriate radial and distance?

Instead of overflying a navaid like a TACAN or VOR and then flying the radial outbound to the desired distance, you can instead fly what's known as a DME arc. You can skip the ~90 degrees of DME arc on the side of the navaid that's facing you by flying directly to a point that is at the desired distance from the navaid perpendicular to your bearing towards the navaid. To do that, instead of continuing to fly towards the navaid, at twice the desired distance from the navaid, turn away 26 degrees and follow that heading (might need to correct for wind drift).