new rotor model being created Yaw very unstable on the Apache

[DaveTC]

Hi,

I am experiencing very erratic yaw behavior in the Apache since the last DCS update. Prior to this update the apache was much more stable in yaw movements in a hover.

Is anyone else experiencing this? I don't have any mods installed except SRS & The Way.

Kind regards,

[Floyd1212]

I feel like the yaw is twitchy again, as well.  Prior to this patch they had greatly improved the behavior of the tail, but I feel like they have regressed to a previous state when they messed with the position hold in this last patch.

[Floyd1212]

Just flew for a couple hours and it is definitely a regression back to before they improved the yaw channel stability.  While in a hover with Position Hold enabled, trying to use the pedals to rotate left or right results in over-correction and oscillations.

[KeyserSoze62]

 Agree completely. Are you also seeing a big deficit in power? I had a standard loadout rockets and hellfires with full fuel and I've never had such a hard time getting airborne.  100% torgue and it was hardly able to climb off the pad. This was in eastern Afghanistan elev 7100  but I never had an issue before the last update.

 

Edited March 24 by KeyserSoze62

[stonewall197922]

Also experiencing the same. When it comes to slowing to hold helicopter becomes hard to control. Movements erratic, and unpredictable. It was much more stable before last patch.

[N.A.S.H.]

+1

Noticed that too. 

[stonewall197922]

I think ED should rollback changes prior to last patch. At least before current patch helicopter was more stable.

[BIGNEWY]

Please include track replay examples of the perceived issue. 

thank you 

[DaveTC]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please include track replay examples of the perceived issue. 

thank you 

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback from everyone!

@BIGNEWY Here attached, as requested, is a track replay of a short flight. I have also attached a copy of the log file of this short flight. Here is also a link to a video made of this short flight: https://youtu.be/O6TMF8kphAs

Kind regards,

4YA_MAR_PVE_V2.95[02_MAY_FEW]-20250324-154925.trk dcs.log

[Floyd1212]

Back when the Apache was getting FM updates on a more regular basis, I used to record a video of a short flight before installing an update, then record another video of the playback of the same track after applying the update.  This would often result in the helo crashing after takeoff, or flying off somewhere completely different, as the same inputs made during the track playback before and after the update would result in very different behavior.

Unfortunately, I didn't do this ahead of applying this update.  Maybe I will start doing this again, as you never know when we might get a regression of some function or FM change.

[stonewall197922]

1 час назад, DaveTC сказал:

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback from everyone!

@BIGNEWY Here attached, as requested, is a track replay of a short flight. I have also attached a copy of the log file of this short flight. Here is also a link to a video made of this short flight: https://youtu.be/O6TMF8kphAs

Kind regards,

4YA_MAR_PVE_V2.95[02_MAY_FEW]-20250324-154925.trk 6.69 \u041c\u0411 · 0 загрузок dcs.log 135.76 \u043a\u0411 · 0 загрузок

Watched your video.  Helicopter behaviour, i was encountered after last patch is the same as on your video. Erratic movements on slowing before hold.

[Amarok_73]

I don't really feel the difference between the behavior of the last patch and the current one.
However, I wonder why not just apply lower saturation on the YAW axis, or change the response curve. This is not something that requires PID tunning, but only the sensitivity of the response to one parameter.

Edited March 24 by Amarok_73

[Leg2ion]

16 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Just flew for a couple hours and it is definitely a regression back to before they improved the yaw channel stability.  While in a hover with Position Hold enabled, trying to use the pedals to rotate left or right results in over-correction and oscillations.

Agree.  First lift off - ended up on my side, in the hover there is definitely some additional 'yaw twitchiness' at play with a slow yaw rate then suddenly kicks in with an oversteer, and coming in to the hover now need to watch for sudden strong yaw changes that weren't there previously (I think).

[[DE] T-Bone]

A reproducible oscillation is noticeable in the yaw axis, which was previously absent or only slightly pronounced.

Even in ATT hold in hovering flight, there is occasionally a deflection in the pitch axis despite good trim. However, this phenomenon only occurs very sporadically and is not always reproducible by me.

Tracks attached.

yaw_ATT_oszilate_2_20250324.trk yaw_oszilate_1_20250324.trk

[Leg2ion]

4 hours ago, Amarok_73 said:

I don't really feel the difference between the behavior of the last patch and the current one.
However, I wonder why not just apply lower saturation on the YAW axis, or change the response curve. This is not something that requires PID tunning, but only the sensitivity of the response to one parameter.

Because its a PITA to keep tweaking curves every patch. I spent a fair bit of time setting them up a couple of years ago, and haven't had any need to tweak them. Maybe time to have  a play...but then that would suggest there have been some changes made if there is a need to change profile curves to bring things back to 'normal' ....

[Poptart]

It's most noticeable with power changes at low speed. It seems SCAS isn't damping yaw as much as it used to.  

[Ulfrun]

On 3/24/2025 at 12:17 AM, DaveTC said:

Hi,

I am experiencing very erratic yaw behavior in the Apache since the last DCS update. Prior to this update the apache was much more stable in yaw movements in a hover.

Is anyone else experiencing this? I don't have any mods installed except SRS & The Way.

Kind regards,

I confirm the same behavior after the update. Especial when a bit faster decrasing of speed occurs, the heli tends to get quite unstable in yaw axis.

[BIGNEWY]

The team will continue to refine the flight model during early access. 

thank you for the tracks

[Floyd1212]

55 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

The team will continue to refine the flight model during early access.

Just so we are all on the same page, the behavior of the tail rotor and the yaw channel of the SCAS was improved in patch DCS 2.9.11.4686 - 24.12.2024, and everybody was happy.  This was a great improvement to the way the aircraft handled in low-speed flight, and while in a hover.

Then, with the release of DCS 2.9.14.8222 - 19.03.2025, the improvements made in December seem to have been "undone", without any mention in the patch notes about other changes to the FM.  The only thing mentioned in the changelog was relating to the Position Hold oscillations.

I think everyone is trying to understand why this would have changed so drastically again, and if the tradeoff is worth it for the slightly improved Position Hold activation?

Hopefully this can be restored back to the improved state we had been enjoying for months now in the next patch, and not have to wait during what can be a very long Early Access period.

[BIGNEWY]

29 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Just so we are all on the same page, the behavior of the tail rotor and the yaw channel of the SCAS was improved in patch DCS 2.9.11.4686 - 24.12.2024, and everybody was happy.  This was a great improvement to the way the aircraft handled in low-speed flight, and while in a hover.

Then, with the release of DCS 2.9.14.8222 - 19.03.2025, the improvements made in December seem to have been "undone", without any mention in the patch notes about other changes to the FM.  The only thing mentioned in the changelog was relating to the Position Hold oscillations.

I think everyone is trying to understand why this would have changed so drastically again, and if the tradeoff is worth it for the slightly improved Position Hold activation?

Hopefully this can be restored back to the improved state we had been enjoying for months now in the next patch, and not have to wait during what can be a very long Early Access period.

Early access does take a long time and while systems are being tweaked there will be adjustments to be made. I have passed on the feedback to the team. 

thank you 

[Floyd1212]

Thanks!

[Leg2ion]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

and if the tradeoff is worth it for the slightly improved Position Hold activation?

I would say no - it isn't.

It find it now gets to the point that the yaw 'oscillations' when pulling into the hover result in some massive overcompensation and height changes if not careful - in my case I tend now to 'go around' - transition back into forward flight away from my target and reattempt to manoeuvre back into a hover - not the ideal - whereas previously it just felt natural. I feel now I am back to fighting against the machine as things were a few years ago.

[admiki]

I found that holding trim release helps a lot with yaw.

Yes, you have to work it all by yourself, but it beats SCAS hunting.

[Leg2ion]

3 hours ago, admiki said:

I found that holding trim release helps a lot with yaw.

Thanks - I'll give it a try, but to be honest, pre latest patch I would normally trim as I slowed to get into a stable hover and then apply a final trim once in the hover with no major issues. What I am finding now is that when applying a small yaw input to keep on current heading the aircraft suddenly goes from small yaw corrections to large ones, almost as if a threshold is reached whereby the movement is amplified, which I cannot counter for. 

[stonewall197922]

16 часов назад, BIGNEWY сказал:

Early access does take a long time and while systems are being tweaked there will be adjustments to be made. I have passed on the feedback to the team. 

thank you 

You must understand, that ED have obligations before buyers. Module was released two years ago and currently FM is incomplete and unstable. That is frighten off other potential buyers and make owners angry. If you ask me at current state module is very uncomfortable to use. I tried recently refund it with no luck. Unfortunately. Im  ok with EA, but two years with no light at the end of the tunnel is too much for me. You make fixes to module and reversing previous changes. Just to understand, current state of apache FM is returned to somewhere a year ago. My suggestion is to revert changes to the state before last patch. It was much more stable before.

Edited March 28 by stonewall197922