Sliding Skidding Rotating U-Turns

[Caldera]

Hey All,

I have been practicing my gun strafing and rockets.  One of the things that I like to do is at the end of the run I smash the left or right peddle and put myself into a slide/skid/rotation where the end result is a 180 degree heading change to previous direction of flight that is essentially just in a straight line in the same direction of travel.  I also use the the same technique somewhat when I just want to slow down fast.  At those times I would allow slide/skid sideways for a time until I have slowed down to the speed I want then straighten back out.

This process is probably not all that realistic, but I have zero real life experience.

But what I notice is that even though I am removing collective (sometimes allot to all) I get a whole bunch of lift from somewhere.  Although this lift and the consequential rise in altitude sets me up perfectly for a dive back down into my strafing run in the opposite direction.  I do not understand why it occurs and if it is realistic or just a simulation side effect.

 

Why does this occur?

Is it realistic?

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

[Leg2ion]

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Why does this occur?

Is it realistic?

I believe it is realistic - but depends on how much altitude your are gaining - though whether intentionally modelled is another thing. If you are doing a tail handling check (say after maintenance) - part of that is to move sideways - both left and right - up to a certain speed. From what I can recall when you recover from that condition - ie slow down/stop - the aircraft would have a tendency to rise - not a great deal mind - so not sure how much altitude you are gaining. If you think that the disc would be slightly angled to promote movement in a certain direction, then as you bleed off speed to slow, that relationship changes and the 'fan' starts to blow more downwards then down/side, so if in ground effect you get a bigger 'cushion' of air underneath you forcing you up unless you counter with the collective perfectly. In addition - depending on which way you turn you can unload the disc - so if you turn the same way as the disc is rotating you will possibly see a rise in altitude as there is momentarily more energy available with a increase in torque. 

The problem you have is that you are entering the sideslip at speed - something the aircraft nor the flying controls/set-up isn't designed to do - and in reality would probably result in severe vibration with possible loss of control. When you rig an aircraft - the blade angles are set to achieve forward flight as the default - so the blades that are considered advancing - ie moving forward in the airflow are nominally set at a lower angle to decrease lift being generated due to higher airflow speed over the blade, and similarly those retreating - ie moving away from the airflow are set at a higher angle to increase lift due to a lower airflow speed. This is to maintain a balanced disc. You are ignoring this relationship.

By slamming the aircraft sideways, and assuming then you are then moving the cyclic in the opposite direction to slow as quickly as possible, will increase the blade angles presented to the airflow resulting in an increase of lift, to a point.

 If doing strafing runs and basically want to do a 180 why don't you pull into a high angle nose up to bleed off speed, then when coming close to stationary go with a large yaw input to swing you around on a dime. The increase in height then allows you to nose dive back down increasing speed pretty quickly towards the target?

[ShuRugal]

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

Hey All,

I have been practicing my gun strafing and rockets.  One of the things that I like to do is at the end of the run I smash the left or right peddle and put myself into a slide/skid/rotation where the end result is a 180 degree heading change to previous direction of flight that is essentially just in a straight line in the same direction of travel.  I also use the the same technique somewhat when I just want to slow down fast.  At those times I would allow slide/skid sideways for a time until I have slowed down to the speed I want then straighten back out.

This process is probably not all that realistic, but I have zero real life experience.

But what I notice is that even though I am removing collective (sometimes allot to all) I get a whole bunch of lift from somewhere.  Although this lift and the consequential rise in altitude sets me up perfectly for a dive back down into my strafing run in the opposite direction.  I do not understand why it occurs and if it is realistic or just a simulation side effect.

 

Why does this occur?

Is it realistic?

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

without a track or a video, it's hard to say for certain, but unless you are adjusting your cyclic to maintain the ROTOR DISK in the exact same attitude through your turn, i'd guess that you're bringing the edge of the disc up as you turn, and consequently gaining lift.

Keep in mind that the rotor is mounted with a slight forward cant relative to the fuselage.  This is to keep the helicopter at a comfortable attitude while in forward flight.  if you yaw the helicopter through 180 while keeping level as indicated by the artificial horizon, the rotor disc will behave as if you had moved the cyclic in a 180 degree arc around center.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 4/3/2025 at 1:16 PM, Caldera said:

Hey All,

I have been practicing my gun strafing and rockets.  One of the things that I like to do is at the end of the run I smash the left or right peddle and put myself into a slide/skid/rotation where the end result is a 180 degree heading change to previous direction of flight that is essentially just in a straight line in the same direction of travel.  I also use the the same technique somewhat when I just want to slow down fast.  At those times I would allow slide/skid sideways for a time until I have slowed down to the speed I want then straighten back out.

This process is probably not all that realistic, but I have zero real life experience.

But what I notice is that even though I am removing collective (sometimes allot to all) I get a whole bunch of lift from somewhere.  Although this lift and the consequential rise in altitude sets me up perfectly for a dive back down into my strafing run in the opposite direction.  I do not understand why it occurs and if it is realistic or just a simulation side effect.

 

Why does this occur?

Is it realistic?

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

Thats entirely realistic. Been used since Korean War. Its called a Vulture Turn, or Gun Track (for fixed gun ). You fix your nose at a point and circle around it, with nose pointed at it. 

When vultures circle a dead or dying animal, they keep their beak pointed at it, as smell is primary sensor augmented by eyesight. Not too different from electronic target tracking in attack helicopters. When working in teams, care to be taken to avoid friendly fire.

[Leg2ion]

8 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Thats entirely realistic.

Every day is a school day I guess as never heard that one? Think what you're saying is realistic may be questionable when the OP is basically describing slamming max pedal in at speed to elicit a slide skid to slow down and affect a turn after a strafing run to change direction and not orbit a target with the nose continue to point at a given spot on the ground.

I am guessing that any such manoeuvre isn't going to be fastest and would also compromise use of rockets/missiles - leaving the AWS only - so may as well let it track the target and continue normal circling flight?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

8 minutes ago, Leg2ion said:

Every day is a school day I guess as never heard that one? Think what you're saying is realistic may be questionable when the OP is basically describing slamming max pedal in at speed to elicit a slide skid to slow down and affect a turn after a strafing run to change direction and not orbit a target with the nose continue to point at a given spot on the ground.

I am guessing that any such manoeuvre isn't going to be fastest and would also compromise use of rockets/missiles - leaving the AWS only - so may as well let it track the target and continue normal circling flight?

You do have to practice, keeping nose, or within gun arc for Apache, while vulture circling. Originated not with helicopters, but with attack aircraft during WWII. Soviet IL-2 pi.ots would form a high circle around German tanks. Then take turns doing strafe runs. When strafing, pilot would slow down to maximize rudder authority, then fire his guns while rudder working to keep nose pointed at target. Skilled A-10 , KA-50, MI-24,Su-25 pilot can do that. I practice it in A-10C, SU-25. KA-50 in DCS. I tried it in MI-24 trial, and it works. 

You can use rockets and fixed gunpods with this tactic. A matter of skill and practice. Rockets (unguided) are an area effect weapon, so there is no need to physically impact a specific target. Just fire at point on ground, let area effect of warheads do their job.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

I realized that I got vulture circle asswardback. Vultures have keen eyesight. THey use their stereoscopic smell to sniff out a target, then fix eyesight on it. Exactly like a Apache or KA-52. Use FCR/RFI to sniff out a battlefield for targets, then fix them with optical sensors, then go in for feast. Vipers (snakes) are same way. Smell to detect prey, IR/optical vision to fix&track prey location and position for attack. Strike! True predator-prey reaction logic that is used in algorithms in military drones.

Now taking the Vulture Turn. By keeping nose or nose gun arc pointed at target, while circling, does three things. All advantageous to attacker.

Reduces chances of target fixation. Cause of many CFIT crashes from WWI to both Gulf Wars and GWOT, and few SU-25 in Ukraine. Pilot shalow dives aircraft at target fires guns, but does not pull out, or pulls out too late. Geeggiitte

Prevents or reduces distance closure of aircraft to target. Making defensive fire less effective

Gives defender more difficult sideways moving target  to engage. 

[Leg2ion]

22 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

All advantageous to attacker.

Hmmm - not convinced I'm afraid...

[Dragon1-1]

On 4/5/2025 at 9:49 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Thats entirely realistic. Been used since Korean War. Its called a Vulture Turn, or Gun Track (for fixed gun ). You fix your nose at a point and circle around it, with nose pointed at it.

Do you have any references for that? A quick search for "vulture turn" didn't reveal anything of note.

[deloy]

This tactical maneuver is actually used by helicopters like Ka50 and Ka52 very efficiently as they have no tail rotor to worry about.  In a maneuver like this, you can get into LTE or overload the tail rotor due to requirements airflow or excess tail rotor thrust requirements, just like you can get into settling with power and vortex ring state with main rotor.  

Traditional gunship helicopters can also do it, albeit with above limitations in mind. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Do you have any references for that? A quick search for "vulture turn" didn't reveal anything of note.

Pretty sure he just made that stuff up.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, just wanted to check. Even AI wouldn't have been that far off base. Given that accurate attack runs require you to fly coordinated (you can use a touch of rudder to aim, but not a lot), it'd be quite a strange tactic indeed.

Circling the target flying sideways is a valid gunship tactic, works similar to a pylon turn that fixed wing gunships use. However, accurately firing in a sideslip (or out of the side of any moving aircraft) pretty much requires a lead computing gunsight. Early gunships simply used miniguns and walked their fire towards the target, the AC-130 didn't get its massive howitzer until the tech to aim it properly was around.

[Leg2ion]

9 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Pretty sure he just made that stuff up.

 Was going to promote the dying fly manoeuvre - where I flip the aircraft onto its back in an effort to confuse the enemy into thinking I am no longer a threat to stop any attempts to seriously harm me with AAA... (apologies but couldn't help myself!). 

[Dragon1-1]

Well, you can barrel roll some helos, but it's unlikely to be of much help.

[HPLsCat]

Is making your CPG hurl helpful?

[Dragon1-1]

Depends on how well you get along with him.  

[Caldera]

Thanks for the replies,

After reading several comments and paying more attention to what I was doing.  I guess, out of habit I was banking while slamming a pedal hard to one side. This I think is what is causing the lift I am seeing.

To some other comments and my own experience, the Apache in DCS is easily able to do rolls and loops (can you dare say immelmann's) so I essentially have no fear flying it.  Mast bumping just will not occur in my limited experience.  True to life?

Caldera

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, Caldera said:

To some other comments and my own experience, the Apache in DCS is easily able to do rolls and loops (can you dare say immelmann's) so I essentially have no fear flying it.  Mast bumping just will not occur in my limited experience.  True to life?

Yes. Mast bumping is a phenomenon specific to a different class of rotor systems, typically those of a semi-rigid nature. While the maneuvers are not consequence-free, they are definitely possible to perform. Numerous videos are out there demonstrating this.

 

[Caldera]

So from the video, mast bumping is not a thing for the Apache.

[admiki]

Google what mast bumping is, but, yeah, it's not a thing in Apache.......or any other fully articulated rotor system helicopter.

[Caldera]

Well,  I took some advice.  

I already knew what mast bumping was, I spent millions of simulated $$$ crashing the DCS Huey by doing just that.  I did learn some more stuff, and more than I needed as for DCS most it is not really simulated.  Bzig is a great source.

 

Feathering <--> Flapping and Lead Lag

Dual Rotors

Tail Rotors

etc...

 

Just a question out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is a clutch (slag clutch?) in the Apache that disengages on engine failure?

Caldera