Impossible to do the AFCS start and get damper with Force Feedback, any clue ?

[FZG_Immel]

Ive been trying to complete a proper cold start, and with my FFBeast base, I am totally unable to obtain a DAMPER OFF light to go off..

 

any clue ?

 

anywhere where this is addressed ?

 

thanks !

[MAXsenna]

Ive been trying to complete a proper cold start, and with my FFBeast base, I am totally unable to obtain a DAMPER OFF light to go off..
 
any clue ?
 
anywhere where this is addressed ?
 
thanks !

Have you set the correct FFB axis? It seems that's an issue for some.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[FZG_Immel]

of course. everything works fine with a hot start or with a air start

 

thx

Edited Saturday at 10:52 PM by FZG_Immel

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

It might also have to do with your specific settings in whichever software FFBeast uses. I had issues with trimming in the F-4 and F-14 with my Rhino until I finetuned the settings - but it took a while for me to fully understand how the software works. It might be something related to either too much spring force or too little, or too much friction counteracting the spring force.

 

All I know is that is works fine for me, but others have reported issues with it too, using a FFB stick. If I were you, I’d check the settings in the FFB software.

Edited Saturday at 10:53 PM by Raven (Elysian Angel)
Autocorrect is the worst!

[FZG_Immel]

I understand what you mean. But I have no issues with any other airplane.

My understanding is that MAYBE, some FFB setting from the telemetry, that I am using on top of the DCS FFB from directX is preventing the autotest from the AFCS to go to the end...  

 

I guess I should just start with no effects from telemetry and add them one by one.

 

But again, I have NO issues trimming the Mig-29.. its just that it cannot run the AFCS test to the end, such as the dampers never kick in.

Edited Saturday at 11:14 PM by FZG_Immel

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

5 minutes ago, FZG_Immel said:

But again, I have NO issues trimming the Mig-29.. its just that it cannot run the AFCS test to the end, such as the dampers never kick in.

My suspicion is that the the AFCS test uses the trim system in the background. That’s why I brought it up: if something interferes with trim forces somehow, it may prevent the test from successfully completing. But perhaps I’m mistaken. Did you try trimming to neutral and then hitting the AFCS OFF switch on the stick, as the training mission suggests in case of test failure?

 

I had no issues with other modules either, but trimming in the F-4 felt weird until I fixed the settings I was referring to, and it also helped the F-14.

In fact, it even made some helicopters easier to fly.

[FZG_Immel]

5 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

My suspicion is that the the AFCS test uses the trim system in the background. That’s why I brought it up: if something interferes with trim forces somehow, it may prevent the test from successfully completing. But perhaps I’m mistaken. Did you try trimming to neutral and then hitting the AFCS OFF switch on the stick, as the training mission suggests in case of test failure?

 

I had no issues with other modules either, but trimming in the F-4 felt weird until I fixed the settings I was referring to, and it also helped the F-14.

In fact, it even made some helicopters easier to fly.

yes, I have tried. same result

you are right and maybe onto something though. Because If I use a FFB profile that I use with the F-4, the AFCS test moves the stick (physically, in game and IRL , but only back and left). If I use a Mig-29 profile I created , based on the F-4 profile but with only 60% of the force applied, then the stick doesnt move at all. So clearly the FFB software and certain settings are influencing that AFCS test and its failure. 

I think I will create a profile with NO effects at all, and try the AFCS test.  if that works, i can always switch to profile for flying afterward (I can easely switch profiles in game)

Edited Saturday at 11:30 PM by FZG_Immel

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, FZG_Immel said:

I think I will create a profile with NO effects at all, and try the AFCS test.  if that works, i can always switch to profile for flying afterward (I can easely switch profiles in game)

It’s way past midnight where I live, and I’m about to go to bed, but if it helps I can check tomorrow in my profiles and let you know what exactly is different in my F-4 and MiG-29 profiles.

I have a “up to third gen jet” profile which I use for the F-4, Mirage F1 and as you might have guessed, all other jets up to third gen.

For MiG-29 I use my “fourth gen non-FBW” profile, which I also use for F-15E for example.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

OK I'll show you my settings for comparison. Keep in mind I have different hardware, a different setup and likely a different grip and different extension. Your mileage may vary etc etc.

The 'Effects' tab are (for me) global settings that I keep consistent across all profiles, but I may untick "Friction" for some profiles, such as my FBW profile. Ignore "Static Force": that's because my grip is offset from the centre of the base, so I need a bit of constant force in pitch away from me to prevent sag.

The 'Settings' tab are modifiers that are calculated at the end of the equation that determines how much force is exerted by the FFB motors. The first screenshot (the one with 50% spring force) is my 3rd gen profile, and the other one (with 40% spring) is my 4th gen profile.
I keep all forces at a lower level with more modern aircraft because you tend to throw them around more often, whereas with 3rd gen and older you need to be a lot more deliberate and careful with your inputs. Higher forces that you throw around more often equals more heat generation, and I want my hardware to last a long time so I take care of it.

But generally, the things you need to be careful with are primarily Friction and Inertia, because they work in the opposite direction of other forces. Wrong settings can cause oscillations and even damage the motors. If I have Friction set to 10% in 'Effects' and 10% in 'Settings', the total amount of Friction is just 1% because 'Settings' are global modifiers at the end of the calculations. I wouldn't go above 2% personally. 1% and 1.5% are very noticeable and plenty to do the job.

What helped me the most is 'Adaptive Recentring' in the 'Effects' tab: that needs to be at 100% or it won't have enough authority. That 100% means 100% of whichever spring force is exerted at any specific moment, so that's less around the centre position, and more as you pull Gs. It's also more with higher global modifiers. 100% of very little is still very little, but it might just be enough to do the job.
I'm aware that Moza software is basically a copy of VPForce's software, but it might work differently for FFBeast. You might not have all of the configurability that I have, or perhaps you have more...

Good luck!

[Tshark]

I have an FFBeast and had the same issue.  I was using an F-14 profile modified for the MiG-29.  I switched profiles to the MiG-29 profile from "JustFlyIt" (you can find it on the FFBeast website).  Now the AFCS BIT test works great and the MiG-29 flies much better.  When I get some time I will compare profiles and find out what the differences are.

Edited yesterday at 12:32 PM by Tshark

[FZG_Immel]

i have this profile. I will test it

 

RAVEN, thanks a lot for your detailed answer. I used to have a rhino before the FFbeast, so I will try to compare profiles, and see which setting is causing the issue.- 

 

Tshark, let me know if you figure it out.

 

My profiles are highly tweaked to produce a lot of AoA/stall effects and such. so i'd like to keep using them while finding whats creating the issue.

[FZG_Immel]

2 hours ago, Tshark said:

I have an FFBeast and had the same issue.  I was using an F-14 profile modified for the MiG-29.  I switched profiles to the MiG-29 profile from "JustFlyIt" (you can find it on the FFBeast website).  Now the AFCS BIT test works great and the MiG-29 flies much better.  When I get some time I will compare profiles and find out what the differences are.

I tried this profile, but with me the stick started shaking more and more (violently) during the AFCS check. 

 

I will try removing the stick axis from the controls to see it if works

 

EDIT: yes, when I remove the Roll and Pitch axis from my FFbeast column, in adjust control, the AFCS test goes to the end and I get damper off lights to go away. 

 

So it defintely comes from a setting of the FFBeast setting.

 

which is strange, because in the FFBeast setting, if I only leave the Dirext X Standard FFB effet for both elevator and aileron axis, it still doest work...  must but a setting within this too... either periodic effect strenghts, spring effect strenghts, or even trimmer effect strenghts

Edited yesterday at 03:18 PM by FZG_Immel

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, FZG_Immel said:

so I will try to compare profiles, and see which setting is causing the issue

Keep in mind there's not just the amount of force for each effect, but also the frequency at which they occur. I tend to not touch these settings, but my current 'Low Pass Output Filters' are suggested by Walmis himself so I'm using those.

[FZG_Immel]

I am onto something.  I managed to get the ACFS to work, but it implied some very specific settings, even with the JustFlyIt profile for the Mig-29 ...

 

basically those in red, and more specifically prolly those in yellow (only showing elevator here, but assume same setting for ailerons)

i have tried using these setting with my personal profile, but not only this is way too strong, but also some other settings seems to interfere. 

 

As a temporary solution, I now simply cold start with this profile, and switch to my favorite profile as part of my take off check list. 

It would be great if ED implemented an option to simply exclude the FFB interaction with the AFCS test though, because this get very complicated.

for example, in the instant action  cold start there is some wind (24kmh) that in my FFBeast telemetry also causes the AOA to go from -5 to +20 degree...  since I have some effects linked to the AOA stall shake, this also creates some force in the stick on the ground, prolly making the AFCS auto test to fail.

 

 

[Psifire]

This is an issue with every FFB joystick I'm guessing.  I have a Sidewinder FFB2 and have the same issue.  My custom cold start checklist currently has the following entries after Ground Power Off:

"Unassign Joystick from X and Y Axis"

"Turn On AFCS and wait for BIT to finish"

"Reassign Joystick to X and Y Axis"

Works every time if I do it this way (and get all the other steps correct of course,) fails every time if I do anything else.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

26 minutes ago, Psifire said:

This is an issue with every FFB joystick I'm guessing.

Nope, works just fine with the Rhino This is feedback given by multiple people who have one.

[Psifire]

19 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Nope, works just fine with the Rhino This is feedback given by multiple people who have one.

Yeah, sorry, I was not being very precise.  It's not every FFB joystick.  The Sidewinder requires that you have your hand on the stick for it to apply forces, so it can't move on it's own like the Rhino can.  Also, I'm sure with the Rhino this is a very cool looking process so I get why they included it (your joystick moves the same way the one in the virtual aircraft moves during the test, correct?)  I just wish they had included a check box in the settings to allow you to disable joystick inputs during Autopilot BIT so that it works with my weird, old, awesome 90s joystick that I bought new at Best Buy more than 25 years ago. (And other similarly obscure FFB equiped joysticks.)

Edited 7 hours ago by Psifire
Added missing thought

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

23 minutes ago, Psifire said:

your joystick moves the same way the one in the virtual aircraft moves during the test, correct?

Yes, it does. And in helicopters it can also move on its own if you have handed over flight controls to the copilot, as long as force trim is enabled (this works exceptionally well in the Kiowa for example).
This is a very welcome and interesting feature since it allows for seamless hand-off of controls in multiplayer for example, as long as both players have a FFB stick (I don't know if it actually works, but using this technique it is possible). FFB truly is a gamechanger  

[Psifire]

26 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes, it does. And in helicopters it can also move on its own if you have handed over flight controls to the copilot, as long as force trim is enabled (this works exceptionally well in the Kiowa for example).
This is a very welcome and interesting feature since it allows for seamless hand-off of controls in multiplayer for example, as long as both players have a FFB stick (I don't know if it actually works, but using this technique it is possible). FFB truly is a gamechanger  

As someone who has been using FFB since before LOMAC was a thing I totally agree.  To be clear the Sidewinder is true Force Feedback (not a rumble pad), and has fairly strong stick mover forces (not compared to the Moza or the Rhino of course, but pretty strong) they just put in a weird feature where it has a sensor on the joystick and you have to be touching it or it won't apply any forces, not even return to center.  It can be pulling really hard and you release it and it just stays where you released it.  While watching the stick move would be cool, I fly in VR now anyway, and the real advantage of FFB is being able to feel control surface feedback.  I honestly can't imagine flying without that anymore.  Being a Microsoft product, one of the great advantages of the Sidewinder has been that it works with everything.  This is the first time I've had an issue with it's FFB functions on a game that supports FFB, so it made it past 25 years before a developer failed to support it properly.  That's a hell of a run.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

57 minutes ago, Psifire said:

To be clear the Sidewinder is true Force Feedback (not a rumble pad)

I do realise that: I had one back in the old days - though it didn't last very low, sadly.

[Hiob]

Maybe worth noting, that the MS Sidewinder is limited to DirectX effects. Whereas Rhino and Moza rely on a third party application and DCS telemetry to provide a lot of the effects/functions.

[Psifire]

Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I do realise that: I had one back in the old days - though it didn't last very low, sadly.

Really you had one die on you?  Was it a Red Button Version?  Mine has been bulletproof, and it has tens of thousands of hours on it at this point.  The twist died within years of me getting it, but I don't like twist axis on joysticks anyway.  I'd be willing to buy a replacement and retire it (strongly considered the Moza,) but there is really no replacement for it.  If you want desktop Force Feedback without having to mount your controller, your choices are Red Button Sidewinder FFB, or a bunch of far inferior options that are just as old.  I've heard some talk on forums about this being because of a patent troll, but I'm guessing the Sidewinder was just a weird product.  It's also the reason that FFB is so widely supported in software, so you are welcome.

[Psifire]

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Maybe worth noting, that the MS Sidewinder is limited to DirectX effects. Whereas Rhino and Moza rely on a third party application and DCS telemetry to provide a lot of the effects/functions.

I did not know that.  Do you know what this means practically?  Are there effects that can't be simulated by the Direct X drivers, or is this an advantage?  Being supported by Direct X explains why it has such wide software adoption, but if it's a limited toolset to work with then it might cause it to have lower fidelity FFB.  If the newer sticks have higher fidelity FFB effects that might be the motivation I need to finally retire the old girl...

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, Psifire said:

Was it a Red Button Version?

To be honest I don't remember. The one that I ended up most happy with and lasted the longest was some Logitech joystick, with throttle slider, joystick with twist axis integrated: Extreme 3D Pro or something.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

they just put in a weird feature where it has a sensor on the joystick and you have to be touching it or it won't apply any forces,

That's to prevent it from wacking your cat. Just tape over or fill the holes with silicon. Or do as I did. Open the grip and remove the sensor. If you don't want to cut the cables, you must open the base as well. 

I have five of them, and none of them has broken. None of them are the "red" version. So no sticky rubber too. Which happened to my MS mouse, which is going on 27 years and still strong apart from the rubber issue, which was fixed with Autoglym rubber fix.