need track replay George is a fickle thing. Bug or problem between back seat and controls?

[shadowborn]

Hi.

I have been flying the Apache quite a bit, and I really appreciate the latest changes to George, especially him being able to put TADS on targets engaged with the FCR to allow me to do BDA. However ...

I find George works so very sub-par for most of this. Tell him to scan an area with TADS, he does. But then he suddenly stops scanning. He suddenly puts the aircraft back to "safed" for no discernible reason. When I have a whole field of targets right in front of me, he does not see any of them. When he finally gets coaxed into tracking one of them, he says "out of range" while the target is, like, 50m in front (maybe he means "minimum range"?). When we crash, and under certain other circumstances, he keeps repeating "aircraft armed!" like a broken record, being incredibly annoying. Besides, this is similar behaviour to what wingmen exhibit when calling out spotted targets: Repeating the same call forever, every five seconds, like a record, potentially until the end of times (or fuel).

All this greatly ruins immersion for me, and constantly nudging George to do stuff makes any mission tedious and, if George is not being useful after 40 minutes of low-level flying under the radar, plain out painful.

Now, this is honestly so bad that I wonder if it's me. Am I doing something wrong, am I too impatient, do I have some kind of missconception about how to use George?

Your experience and opinions would be welcome.

Thanks.

[Derbroomaster]

4 hours ago, shadowborn said:

Hi.

I have been flying the Apache quite a bit, and I really appreciate the latest changes to George, especially him being able to put TADS on targets engaged with the FCR to allow me to do BDA. However ...

I find George works so very sub-par for most of this. Tell him to scan an area with TADS, he does. But then he suddenly stops scanning. He suddenly puts the aircraft back to "safed" for no discernible reason. When I have a whole field of targets right in front of me, he does not see any of them. When he finally gets coaxed into tracking one of them, he says "out of range" while the target is, like, 50m in front (maybe he means "minimum range"?). When we crash, and under certain other circumstances, he keeps repeating "aircraft armed!" like a broken record, being incredibly annoying. Besides, this is similar behaviour to what wingmen exhibit when calling out spotted targets: Repeating the same call forever, every five seconds, like a record, potentially until the end of times (or fuel).

All this greatly ruins immersion for me, and constantly nudging George to do stuff makes any mission tedious and, if George is not being useful after 40 minutes of low-level flying under the radar, plain out painful.

Now, this is honestly so bad that I wonder if it's me. Am I doing something wrong, am I too impatient, do I have some kind of missconception about how to use George?

Your experience and opinions would be welcome.

Thanks.

Don't expect much help with this. George AI has been reported repeatedly as inconsistent, at best, multiple times. 

In any case, if you don't include a track file of what you're talking about happening and including the time mark when it happens (yes, really) you have zero chance of getting a useful response. This has been my experience, and there is still no resolution. 

At this time, if I feel like flying the Apache solo, I seriously have to weigh whether the inevitable frustration of George not working correctly is worth the effort.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

if you wish to report an issue we will need to see a short track replay example that reproduces the issue. 

thank you 

[Floyd1212]

If George is "safe"-ing the aircraft when he shouldn't be, check your controller and make sure your hat (assuming you are using a hat) isn't misfiring in multiple directions when it shouldn't be. (i.e. you are pressing "right" on the hat and it is also sending a "down" command.)

Yes, the annoying loop telling you the "aircraft is armed" after you have hit the ground in a crash is a bug, but not something you are doing wrong.

I find George most useful when engaging enemies from a hover, at a distance.  Park behind a hill with a good line-of-sight to your enemy group at about 7km and go to work.  If the aircraft is stable, and you aren't being rushed, he does a good job (too good?) at finding targets and taking them out.  Now that you have the ability to queue up targets for him, and for him to adjust his track while maintaining his lase, you can wipe out multiple vehicles in one batch.  You can take it to the next level and WAS missiles yourself in the back and keep a steady stream of missiles in the air to work through the queue very quickly.

You can also use him successfully when rolling in on your target, taking the shot, then rolling out to circle back around for another run.  Picking off one or two vehicles this way works well for me.

When things tend to go bad with George for me is when I have gotten myself in way too close and am expecting him to engage a specific target (the one that is shooting at me) while I'm flying around like a madman trying to save my ass.  Finding that specific target is a pain, then he takes his time to get his crosshairs on the target when you are moving, especially laterally to the target.

I usually still use the "my LOS" method for directing George, but I do use the "scan" mode when I am flying toward a known enemy area so that he can spot them while we are still out of range and I can decide where to go to engage. 

[NeedzWD40]

11 hours ago, shadowborn said:

Am I doing something wrong, am I too impatient, do I have some kind of missconception about how to use George?

Yes. The first and second rules of George are never trust George. The third rule is that George doesn't suck, he blows. When you complete the startup in the backseat, turn on the CMWS, then calmly get out of the back seat, go to the front seat, pull George out, stuff him into the back seat, and chain his hands to his ankles. You may follow up with a rubber ball gag in his mouth. Close the back door, get into the front seat, and run all operations up front. He may occasionally mumble something about being unable to go down because "water is under", but that's because he's a wuss and probably related to the wicked witch of the west (ie he melts when exposed to water).

It used to be that George would automatically start certain things up from the front seat without being told to do so, but even that was too dangerous for him, so now he's relegated to being a meat sandbag for weight and balance purposes.

Set the front seat up with a mode switch for your essential TADS controls, adjust yourself to using the FLT page on the left MPD (the symbology select depress will become your best friend for this), and enjoy the freedom of slaving TADS to your own helmet for 240 degrees of awareness. Works great with the FCR, too!

[primus_TR]

George works fine. What you describe points to procedural errors on your part. For example, George will safe the weapons only if you issue a Down (keyboard S) command. 

I recommend reading the George section of the manual.

[Czar]

I had this 'aircraft armed' announcement bug too. There are no master arm switch binded to my hotas.

Multiple times George is not firing the weapon after announcing 'Engaging' within constraints and steady flight. A cycle from 'No Weapon'/De Wased or from a de-slaved TADS brings him back to be able to shoot.

This happens a lot.

I'll try to generate a short track when able.

Edited Monday at 04:53 PM by Czar

[Bigity]

On 10/4/2025 at 4:08 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Yes. The first and second rules of George are never trust George. The third rule is that George doesn't suck, he blows. When you complete the startup in the backseat, turn on the CMWS, then calmly get out of the back seat, go to the front seat, pull George out, stuff him into the back seat, and chain his hands to his ankles. You may follow up with a rubber ball gag in his mouth. Close the back door, get into the front seat, and run all operations up front. He may occasionally mumble something about being unable to go down because "water is under", but that's because he's a wuss and probably related to the wicked witch of the west (ie he melts when exposed to water).

It used to be that George would automatically start certain things up from the front seat without being told to do so, but even that was too dangerous for him, so now he's relegated to being a meat sandbag for weight and balance purposes.

Set the front seat up with a mode switch for your essential TADS controls, adjust yourself to using the FLT page on the left MPD (the symbology select depress will become your best friend for this), and enjoy the freedom of slaving TADS to your own helmet for 240 degrees of awareness. Works great with the FCR, too!

Can you release flares (and chaff) from the front seat?

[NeedzWD40]

25 minutes ago, Bigity said:

Can you release flares (and chaff) from the front seat?

Yes, you can do both and you do get auditory warnings from CMWS in the front.

[Bigity]

Oh nice for some reason I thought you couldn't

[NeedzWD40]

6 minutes ago, Bigity said:

Oh nice for some reason I thought you couldn't

CPG has both chaff and flare on the cyclic; the grips are identical across crew stations.

Page 123 in the DCS manual if that's your thing.

[Bigity]

I'm just gonna chalk it up to being dumb   Or the utter lack of sitting in the front seat

[Derbroomaster]

On 10/6/2025 at 9:31 PM, Bigity said:

I'm just gonna chalk it up to being dumb   Or the utter lack of sitting in the front seat

You owe it to yourself to set yourself up to sit in the front seat. It is the single-most fun thing to do in DCS with a buddy. I have this and the Tomcat, and CP/G in the Apache is one of my favorite things to do.

[Hammer1-1]

yeah, want a decent dopamine spike? learn that CPG spot. 

[GeoS72]

@shadowborn,

The problem is complicated to say the least. I've been reporting issues with GeorgeAI for a while. Despite my best efforts to provide the requisite information it never seems be be "enough". The problems with GeorgeAI really start to manifest after flying for a while. I'd say after 30min of flying. That defeats the purpose of providing a short track file for review.

I'm not sure if this may help you but after all the recent updates to GeorgeAI, I follow these steps:
1. Maintain a loadout of 1-Kilo and 3-Lima Hellfire per rack.
2. Keep him de-WAS'ed until within range.
3. GeorgeAI can lase to obtain range data while de-WAS'ed (short right).
4. Once in-range, switch GeorgeAI to RF MSL or SAL MSL (short left, then long left to cycle between MSL types).
5. He should activate the laser for range data (so the data can be automatically transferred to the Hellfire)
6. If he has a hard time lasing the target, switch between RF MSL and SAL MSL. This is why I keep at least 1 Kilo Hellfire per rack.
7. You should be no closer than 1,100 meters to fire the MSL. Otherwise, GeorgeAI will not comply after consent is given.
8. Frequently have George AI de-WAS'ed when you are not actively shooting at a target. My rule of thumb is de WAS him after 1 minute from the last target hit.

Note: I've had many times where I had to cycle GeorgeAI 3+ times to get compliance and fire a missile.

I also had to slow down my button movements to be more deliberate. This can be very challenging especially when you get caught up in some intense battle sequences.

GeorgeAI is still far from perfect. As you noted after crashing, I too get the repeating "Aircraft armed" callout. That is normally caused when the helo is wobbling/tilted/fallen on its side, or there is damage to the weight on wheel switch (however the game calculates that logic).

Lately, I will see and hear GeorgeAI stuck in a target lasing loop. I'll hear him call out "lasing" to infinity and also see a notification window that says "lasing" scroll down the right side of my screen to infinity. I have to undesignate the target and reacquire it for the problem to go away.

I know this may sound silly to ask: Have you verified there are no keybinding conflicts when you experience GeorgeAI safing the helo? 

@BIGNEWY, I ask for consideration to short track file requirement. Based on my experience in multiplayer environments, which is were many of us experience these bugs, it takes at least 30 minutes of flight time to encounter an issue with GeorgeAI. Furthermore, it is a huge PITA to stop my entertainment and exit the server just so I can immediately preserve my DCS log and multiplayer track file. Then get criticism for it being too long/large and not be reviewed; or suggest to provide more data.

Trust me when I say that I have better things to do than to complain about a DCS module (or modules). If I'm complaining about a problem, then I'm pretty fed up about it.

You are welcome to come into my server and experience the issues hurting my head. You may collect all the data you wish at that point.