Collective recommendations for 2025?

[Tasky]

Morning all, 

Given how my heli-brain is very dominant and is refusing to operate my hands correctly unless they're holding a proper collective, I'm looking around to see what options are worth considering and would appreciate some guidance...

 

I'm after something chair-mounted, not too long and preferably with lots of different inputs as it will need to replace my HOTAS throttle. I've already discounted the Virpil based on a number of reviews, and WinWing have annoyingly discontinued theirs. 

I've been most drawn to the offerings from Microhelis.de (types 3 and 8 ) and the forum's own K-51... but have also wondered if Max Flight Stick (H145, OH58D) or Pro-Flight Trainer's PUMA range are any good - These latter two look quite good, but in review videos the sticks from both companies look to have a lot of flexion when operated.  Is that something owners here have found?

Are there any others I should be looking at?

 

[Aviators]

For the quality/price ratio choose virpil.

[Mordants]

I've had my Virpil collective a couple of years now. It has given sterling service. I had a snag with flickering sensors which was sorted by customer services within 72hrs, despatch and return. Bang for buck you wont get better and support is absolutely first class!

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Good evening, Tasky.

I have used the Pro Flight Trainer Puma (an older version than the one being sold these days) for years without issues. It’s brilliant for flying the Huey and Mi-8/24, but lacks buttons and switches to operate the later more complicated helicopters (AH-64, OH-58). This is probably why later versions of the Puma added more of them.

Currently I’m using the Virpil collective, as can be seen in my signature. It has the Ka-50 style grip which is more than good enough for my needs.

There are other threads already about this exact same topic, so I suggest reading those as well.

[Tasky]

As mentioned, I'm rather discouraged by Virpil, having read/seen how much wobble, flex and slop there appears to be in reviews.

In fact, it's the number of times I saw this in Virpil reviews that had me wondering about similar wobble in the more expensive PFT and MFS products - Several review vids of PFT show the collective lever jiggling about like crazy, while the MSF lever looks to have a lot of flex... I expected much better for those prices, so I was wondering if it was just the way the reviewers had set things up?

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

It’s up to you, but what’s the quality of review samples: are they prototypes, pre-production models or representative of what a customer can buy?

It’s like going to a motorcycle press launch: the bikes there get ridden/abused hard. Is the handlebar bent because of a production problem, or because a journalist smacked it onto the pavement?

I have a lot of Virpil gear, and not a single time have I seen QA/QC problems…

[zcaa0g]

If there is any "wobble", they did a poor job of mounting the collective base.  Do you have any links to the reviews your referencing?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 minute ago, zcaa0g said:

they did a poor job of mounting the collective base.

That reminds me: before I purchased my new R1 Falcon pedals, I watched the only review that was on YouTube at the time (from a Russian channel), and the guy mounted the damper wrong. Not sure how that would affect the functionality of the pedals, but still…

[Tasky]

32 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

It’s up to you, but what’s the quality of review samples: are they prototypes, pre-production models or representative of what a customer can buy?

The concerning ones were usually post-release reviews (Noobifier, for example) and/or just new customers unboxing and showing off. Written complaints are more user comments on various sim forums around the web. 

32 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I have a lot of Virpil gear, and not a single time have I seen QA/QC problems…

Most videos show a slight L-R wobble at the head end... but it's when you see them lift the lever say 5" and when they let go it drops back down a good 3" from the amount of flex... It's not supposed to be like that, surely? 

40 minutes ago, zcaa0g said:

If there is any "wobble", they did a poor job of mounting the collective base.  Do you have any links to the reviews your referencing?

This is more about the flexion when moving the collective arm itself, although even some that look well mounted to Monstertech kit still seem to wobble at the head end.

Most of the vids were just from quick searches on YouTube, but I do recall Rotor-Sims being one. He has a fabulous H145 motion sim setup, but his MFS stick looks to have a notable about of flex.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

22 minutes ago, Tasky said:

It's not supposed to be like that, surely? 

Mine doesn’t

[zcaa0g]

If the base is mounted properly, there is no lateral flex from the collective handle.  I did a custom job in conjunction with the Foxxmount mounting plate below and it's rock solid.  Not mostly solid, but completely solid.

https://foxxmount.com/collections/mounting-plates/products/virpil-collective-mounting-plate

 

[Tasky]

I'm not interested in Virpil.

I don't like their switches, I don't like their software, I don't like their designs, and I've seen enough reviews that imply they don't meet my expectations. 

[Aviators]

Then don't buy anything. There's no quality collective today. As I wrote, for the price-quality ratio, Virpil is the only decent one.

[zcaa0g]

8 hours ago, Tasky said:

I'm not interested in Virpil.

I don't like their switches, I don't like their software, I don't like their designs, and I've seen enough reviews that imply they don't meet my expectations. 

Yet you want a collective to be mounted to a chair.  Your standards aren't that high with that desire.

[Tasky]

1 hour ago, zcaa0g said:

Yet you want a collective to be mounted to a chair.  Your standards aren't that high with that desire.

The chair mount is not through choice.

But what kit (other than Virpil, obv) would you say is of high standard... even if the price is high? I was specifically asking about MFS and PFT because there haven't been that many reviews in the past 4-6 years...

 

 

[Mr_sukebe]

For a chair mount, the first question from my side is how you’ll mount anything to the chair?

On the arms?

Does it have secure mounting points?

If you’re insistent on using a chair, start by taking a look at some of the mounting options from Monstertech.  Yes, they’re expensive, but they also work well.

As for the Virpil, there’s a multitude of ways to bugger up its physical setup. It needs a very solid mount (hence my comments above),  and some playing around with the level of resistance via the spring system that is used to cater for the weight.  Took me several hours over different days to get it right.

Its now hard mounted to my aluminium profile frame, with the spring set such that the collective has a small amount of friction and feels like it has no weight.

As for alternatives.  There’s not much, outside of the full on “built for commercial” sim kits.  The only genuine alternative is from WinWing, but I’ve no idea if it’s any good.

 

[Tasky]

10 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

For a chair mount, the first question from my side is how you’ll mount anything to the chair?

On the arms?

Does it have secure mounting points?

It's kinda like a car seat, mounted to an old industrial 4-legged bandsaw frame so it can slide on the runners. The footprint, angle of the legs and the stretchers mean I can't fit any floor-standing kit, but I can mount pretty much any thing to the baseplate itself - This sits somewhere between normal floorplate height and where a Monstertech baseplate would be, hence a chair-mount being the closest match.

I could easily do away with the upright armatures of either the PFT or MFS and just mount those directly to my baseplate. 

 

10 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

If you’re insistent on using a chair, start by taking a look at some of the mounting options from Monstertech.  Yes, they’re expensive, but they also work well.

Don't I know it - I have their HOTAS desk mounts already!! 

 

10 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

As for the Virpil, there’s a multitude of ways to bugger up its physical setup. It needs a very solid mount (hence my comments above),  and some playing around with the level of resistance via the spring system that is used to cater for the weight.  Took me several hours over different days to get it right.

The faff with the tension seems to be the biggest factor in introducing unwanted flex or slop. Many reviewers complained that getting it tight enough to prevent it dropping and removing the slop resulted in quite uneven lift pressure, stiction or outright flex... and that it wouldn't stay fixed for more than a couple of weeks.   

 

10 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

As for alternatives.  There’s not much, outside of the full on “built for commercial” sim kits.  The only genuine alternative is from WinWing, but I’ve no idea if it’s any good.

I did have my heart set on the WinWing already, but the barstewards discontinued it right before I placed my order. The shorter lever would have been great for the Gazelle, too...

So which ones are these 'built for commercial'? 

[Mr_sukebe]

Some good news for you.

The point about "slop" was almost certainly because they were using the friction setting to stop the droop.  Since that issue was raised to Virpil, they added the counterbalance system, and I believe that it's now part of the unit sold.
The counterbalance is basically a spring that can have it's tension adjusted.   The adjustment means that you can use different weight grips with the base.  Personally I have a Hawk unit.

So to setup:

• Securely mount it
• Add the grip
• Reduce the friction to nearly zero
• Adjust the spring/counterbalance such that there's just a tiny bit of droop
• Add a spot of friction to stop the tiny bit of droop

That results in low friction/stiction, whilst having a collective that won't droop.

Hope that helps.

[Tasky]

OK, how about this angle...

 

What is it about the four brands I mentioned that makes them so unworthy of consideration?