Downloadable DCS + Starforce

[Sparky]

Does the download version of DCS from the main DCS site contain Starforce? I realize the retail DVD version does, but without a DVD does the game still require starforce?

 

I would really like to purchase this game but refuse to have Starforce on any of my system for a number of reasons.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Sparky

[Distiler]

Both DVD and download version use the same Starforce that just use internet to check things (Starforce Proactive). It doesent check dvd in any case, it doesen't install dvd drivers, etc. that caused problems to some users in the past. Nothing to worry with Proactive.

[EtherealN]

Yes, the download version uses StarForce ProActive. The reason for using it is the same as on a DVD - to protect intellectual property.

 

StarForce ProActive does not install any drivers and the only hardware access it has is the same as any program - it can ask the operating system what hardware is present to see if it is on a new computer.

[joey45]

It's the proactive version of SF, There is no SF files installed on the system.

 

EDIT: damn beaten to it

[Steel Jaw]

I utterly detest SF and have thrown games like Rogue Spear in the trash before even installing it because of SF.

 

HOWEVER, this version of SF has not caused me any grief and minds its own business with other software/hardware on my system. Might have something to do with the class action lawsuit they lost. ;-)

 

You ought to be fine.

[Frederf]

Star Force got a nasty backlash from their initial copy protection designs but I believe they have radically changed their methods so that the old criticisms no longer hold true.

[EvilBivol-1]

Question asked and answered (thank you). Unless there are more questions, let's not make this into another SF debate.

[Sparky]

Ok, Thanks for your response. I will likely get this game for myself for Christmas now since the driver and root-kit issues have been resolved. This is good to hear.

[Anonymous Poster]

Question asked and answered (thank you). Unless there are more questions, let's not make this into another SF debate.

Any chance of this going on Steam or another provider without starforce? I saw some threads from a long time ago where this was suggested and being looked at but don't think anything came of it.

 

What happens if you run out of activations/deactivations? I would have probably run out of activations in less then a year. Last month new video card (new activation), a month before that swapped out 6 memory modules (new activation), before that a new CPU (again new activation) and before that a new mobo and HD's (again more activations).

 

Also when Win7 got released I re-installed that twice since my RAID5 card drivers didn't support a 64-bit intel setup (switched to onboard) so two more activations gone again...

 

This sim looks amazing from everything I've seen but I don't want to rebuy it everytime I hit the activation limits and from Starforce's past behaviour I'm not sure I want anything from them on my system. Does starforce even work, if I type "dcs black shark" into google the first suggestion it gives is to search for torrents???

[Distiler]

There are games on Steam with anticopy/antiexecution protection like Starforce. Steam is just a digital distribution system, like buying from D2D or even from ED webpage. For some games (Valve ones I think) it may act like also as a login-activator, but for most of them not. I hope one day will see LockOn and DCS in Steam (for "dispersion" of simulation puroposes), but won't be incompatible with having Starforce on top of it.

 

Also, use deactivations first, then activations. Otherwise, ask politelly ED for more activations and they'll give you another serial, it's in the FAQ. Search in forums, all this discusion has happened before.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Distiler

[Anonymous Poster]

I was looking more into FL Proactive before letting it on my system and got some more questions (decided to reuse this thread instead of starting a new one).

 

This game uses Frontline Proactive right and Starforce defines the protection scheme in the following image (also available in the whitepaper PDF's on their site).

 

http://www.star-force.com/images/Image/schems/fl_pactive.jpg

 

They also offer optical protection schemes defined as...

 

http://www.star-force.com/images/Image/schems/fl_disc.jpg (contains spelling mistakes???)

 

Now notice that the protection stage is exactly the same for proactive and optical. From what I understand they package the protected files together and then use their own virtual filesystem to allow applications to transparently access these files (calls CreateFile, ReadFile, etc get intercepted by their VFS drivers and the requested data is decrypted and returned). If that is still the case then that means that they will still need to install their own VFS driver on the users system?

 

Am I correct?

[EtherealN]

What happens if you run out of activations/deactivations? I would have probably run out of activations in less then a year. Last month new video card (new activation)' date=' a month before that swapped out 6 memory modules (new activation), before that a new CPU (again new activation) and before that a new mobo and HD's (again more activations).[/quote']

 

Search function is your friend. For example, reading the FAQ would explain that your understanding of how the protection works is lacking.

 

New video card does not necessarily mean you need a new activation.

Swapping memory modules does not necessarily mean you need a new activation.

New CPU does need a new activation, whereupon you are invited to use the deactivation feature.

Installing new HD's does not necessarily mean you need a new activation. (Done so several times, didn't have to activate again.)

New motherboard probably also requires an activation (again, deactivate first), but I'm not 100%.

 

And the Win7 example would be easily solved through not installing software until you have basic things like your hardware operational.

 

Finally, in the unfortunate event that you run out, you contact ED with an explanation of your situation and you may get a refill.

 

If that is still the case then that means that they will still need to install their own VFS driver on the users system?

 

Am I correct?

 

No.

[Anonymous Poster]

No.

Are you sure because if I understand their website correctly this is how their file level protection works?

 

If you have BS installed mind checking your device manager (right click on My Computer and choose Manage) to see if you have any Starforce devices at root or under "Storage Controllers", "Non plug and play devices" or "Other devices" (not sure if they would be called Starforce or whatever their internal name or codename is for these products).

 

Thanks

[159th_Viper]

Are you sure because if I understand their website correctly this is how their file level protection works?

 

EtherealN is Correct. Your Understanding of the workings of the Protection System is Wrong. Trust me......;)

[EtherealN]

Indeed, Anonymous, I have no such devices in my list. In fact, Windows Media Player and the MSN client are both more invasive than this.

 

With that answered, I'd really recommend reading the FAQ and using the search function to see old threads on this topic. Most questions have already been answered.

[159th_Viper]

To Clarify my reply above, herewith an Extract from the Satrforce Website:

 

2. Protection driver

 

 

2.1 Do the applications that require activation via the Internet use the protection driver?

 

 

No! Since such applications require no optical media in the drive and do not check the uniqueness of such media, they require no protection against optical drive emulators, and therefore, do not use special protection driver designed to work with optical media.

 

However, according to a publisher’s choice, some applications can employ the protected container technology; the driver is used in this case.

 

And Yeah - the Last Paragraph is not applicable to Black Shark atm - just in case it causes a Modicum of Confusion.

[Anonymous Poster]

In fact, Windows Media Player and the MSN client are both more invasive than this.

How do you figure?

With that answered, I'd really recommend reading the FAQ and using the search function to see old threads on this topic. Most questions have already been answered.

I've read the FAQ and I'm reading through old threads now, from one I've discovered that running VMWare eats away at the activations because of the Virtual NIC's. Unfortunately I'm running VMWare...

 

I do want to try this sim but I'm just having a hard time getting past the Starforce protection when I've had so many issues with them and similar systems in the past.

[EvilBivol-1]

I believe we are yet to confirm any SF-related technical issues resulting from the protection used in DCS: Black Shark or receive complains about its interference with users' PCs. If the question is in the limited activations, these can be replenished if proof of purchase is provided and has been done countless times before. If the question is in what may happen if ED is no longer able to provide support, this has also been previously and clearly addressed in the FAQ:

Q: What will be the activation limits for Flaming Cliffs 2.0?

 

A: 8 activations and 10 deactivations. Note that just reinstalling the game does NOT use an activation! An activation or deactivation is only used when there is a significant hardware or OS change. Even if the user has exhausted all of their activations and deactivations, more are provided with proof of purchase.

 

If in the unfortunate circumstance Eagle Dynamics were to go out of business, our intent would be to release a final patch to remove copy protection.

Edited January 3, 2010 by EvilBivol-1

[EtherealN]

How do you figure?

 

Changes made to, through and for them can affect the entire system unless you are careful.

 

Anyway, any more questions of a specific nature? This thread will not devolve into a(nother) Starforce good/bad thread, so specific questions on the nature of DCS protection only, please.

[Anonymous Poster]

Changes made to, through and for them can affect the entire system unless you are careful.

Changes made to MSN can effect the entire system?

Anyway, any more questions of a specific nature? This thread will not devolve into a(nother) Starforce good/bad thread, so specific questions on the nature of DCS protection only, please.

I have searched but these questions have remained unanswered, sorry if its a repost.

 

Ok so DCS does not use any sort of file level protection from Starforce, correct? No checking if the executable file has been modified or anything?

 

Is Starforce installed as a seperate application/program? For example Starforce provides their own activation/deactivation screens, is this part of some Starforce install on the system or are you guys just linking to some starforce static/dynamic libraries (which have these forms embedded)?

 

If it is installed as a seperate app/program, does it run its own host process in the background that protected games call through? Auto updates itself?

[Distiler]

It's all about an exe and a dll placed in the Blackshark folder, it doesen't install anything in windows, no process loaded, etc. It doesen't protect copy of the files, it just protect the execution on the game, you can do backups of the game (contrary to the usual anticopy systems).

 

In the end, nobody likes those protections, but in the end we have to choose. And this has been debated ad infinitum before in this forum and all simulation forums before, just stop it please.

[EtherealN]

Changes made to MSN can effect the entire system?

 

Yes, it's autorepair functions can change a lot of your system-wide internet connectivity settings. (I have a somewhat peculiar network layout here, so on my main rig I have to choose between reliable browsing and MSN access due to this "feature".)

 

Ok so DCS does not use any sort of file level protection from Starforce' date=' correct? No checking if the executable file has been modified or anything?[/quote']

 

That's the kind of information that would help the less nice elements. But it does not install a driver.

 

Is Starforce installed as a seperate application/program?

 

There is a separate StarForce Proactive executable.

 

If it is installed as a seperate app/program' date=' does it run its own host process in the background that protected games call through? Auto updates itself?[/quote']

 

When you start the simulator it calls the protection system to basically "ask for permission", and if the protection system sees itself as activated it gives permission. It's basically "Yo, may I fly? Yes/No." It tests itself at runtime through comparing itself with the hardware when activated to the hardware at runtime (normal hardware check call to the OS, just like most games use to propose a graphics setting), and if differences exceed those stipulated as acceptable (see the FAQ) it asks for an activation.

 

It does not auto-update with newer versions of itself - it'll only get changed if you update manually or through patches released by ED.

 

Put it this way: the reason why software suites like VMware can cause it to get confused is exactly because it has no direct hardware access and no driver that allows it to see actual hardware - and windows will report all virtual hardware, virtual partitions and all such as "the real deal" when an application asks.

 

So, again: the protection system has no authority over the operating system nor hardware. There has, from over a year of successful retail, not been a single report of it causing damage.

 

That really should be satisfactory, shouldn't it?