My A-10C preparation

[Duckling]

Wags just confirmed that the rockers in the CDU are momentary just as I guessed. That's great! Now the challenge is to find momentary rockers of that dimension, or somehow make latched rockers into momentary ones. I haven't tried that. Has anyone?

 

A quiz regarding the discoussion about latched or momentary rockers/togges etc. Donno if I missunderstood the background question

 

If already discussed, please disregard

 

Hocking up the controls (switches etc) to a IOcard (opencockpits.com) gives the ability via SIOC to set the input value to the sim and the type of switch/toggle itself, also a default start value for momentary switches.

The sim correlate the correct visual position of the switch versus the input value set by the physical switch.

Sounds cool but can be messy after a "crach" and the sim restarted :-)

 

Back to to the checklists :-)

 

Using momentary's make it simplier to controll the sim but as you I prefer to have the closest possible switches to use through out the pit where possible.

 

The mess is when the sim uses a "stepped" input for a function that is hardset in the real pit, such as setting a specific mode via a rotary and the sim demands to a a "knob" triggered several times until you get the desired value.

The only way I can think of to fix this issue is to have SIOC iterate the same command while reading the mode output value via LUA from the sim until the expected value match. (for example setting the releasemode on the 10A weapon panel)

 

*************

edit/ ok, NOW I grabed the topic, sorry :-) for derailing...

Edited March 18, 2010 by Duckling

[Alex_rcpilot]

Possibly but there are a few thinks to consider.

1How many LCD are you going to hook up I want at least three for the outside view 2 for the Color Multifunction displays and possibly one for the engine gauges now the ati 5870 hd are $400 to $600 dollars so your making an investment before you ever add the lcd monitors.

 

2. getting the main instrument panel structural sound to hold ever thing after you have cut all the holes out for all the instruments. Remember the main instrument panel is not flat in realty but it is stepped for different instruments and has some thing like 2.75 to 3.25 inch thickness at the thickest point and around .75 inch thickness for the main flat part of the main panel. The main panel has to be strong to support the pulling on the landing gear handle and the fire handels.

 

3 Cutting the LCD to fit the 5 inch wide center raised portion would be and interesting exercise so it would fit the raised section and not be 3 inches behind the panel.

 

Well, there goes three good reasons to mind about the VP solution. :thumbup:

That's why I said "if you don't mind" in the quote. Not everybody is planning to build a perfect replica of the real thing. So it depends.

 

My personal flavor would be building physical gauges with 3D-printing technology and some resin casting. I'm in contact with a company which prints 3D prototypes. Here's some demonstrations of their work:

Initially the models are made out of composite powder sticking together. When the prototyping process is complete, the model is dipped inside a chemical which then drys up and provides extra strength and integrity.

 

For decorating parts which don't bare any mechanical load or come in contact with abrasion from fingers....etc., 3D printed prototypes may be used directly. And for other parts which require certain degree of strength. A mold can be made with one of these things, and then used to cast identical structures with resin.

 

Transmission parts like gears in various dimensions can be made this way. If you make them thick and use lubricant, they could last long enough just like ordinary nylon gears.

 

I think you guys may find similar companies worldwide. There's also a RepRap Mendal project on Wikipedia. Whether you'd go with this solution or not, it's an option.:)

[Alex_rcpilot]

Wags just confirmed that the rockers in the CDU are momentary just as I guessed. That's great! Now the challenge is to find momentary rockers of that dimension, or somehow make latched rockers into momentary ones. I haven't tried that. Has anyone?

 

Is it 3-way or 2-way? A 3-way momentary switch stays in the neutral postion and goes either way when you press it. I'll buy a couple of rockers next time I hit the store, disregarding the dimensions and just trying to figure out a way to modify.

[rocketeer]

Alex, thanks for offering to try out modifying latched rockers to momentary.

 

I suppose it's a 3 way switch in the CDU, resting in neutral position and go either way temporarily when pressed. Personally I've never come across a momentary rocker. It seems so rare.

[rocketeer]

Maybe we can use 3D printing if it's difficult to sculp a perfect replica of this knob by hand, provided someone can do a decent 3D rendering in the first place.

 

If sculpting by hand, I think clay would be too soft to work on, probably wood is better, and some dremel tool or routing table stuff. Maybe I'd give wood a try.

[Alex_rcpilot]

No problem, Shawn.

 

I just came up with a search result showing a rocker almost exactly as we need it. 3-way ON-OFF-ON, momentary on both ends.

 

Three problems:

A. It's 21x15, not 20x9;

B. It's black all over, backlighting may become an issue;

C. Guy sells those in a 100PCS batch. Not expensive though, just pointless keeping them on the shelf.

 

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on any possible solution.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Here's a picture of the pitch black rocker. There was watermark all over, so I removed the crap, and kept the manufacturer logo beneath.

 

*Update:

There's a rocker switch called KCD3-111, which I can buy in small quantities from other dealers. I'm gonna place the order tomorrow. Here's a picture of it below, and the inner rocker dimension is unkown. Outter frame dimension is 21.0 x 14.8mm, and installation cutoff dimension 19.1 x 13.1mm. The rocker looks like 16x9mm to me.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Alex_rcpilot

[rocketeer]

No problem, Shawn.

 

I just came up with a search result showing a rocker almost exactly as we need it. 3-way ON-OFF-ON, momentary on both ends.

 

Three problems:

A. It's 21x15, not 20x9;

B. It's black all over, backlighting may become an issue;

C. Guy sells those in a 100PCS batch. Not expensive though, just pointless keeping them on the shelf.

 

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on any possible solution.

 

I'm not worried that it's black. I can fabricate the top in clear resin.

I think it's easier to find something latched but closer to our 20x9 dimension, and modify it to momentary by putting some spring to the sides, then to find something of a different dimension but momentary, coz if it's too big it won't fit into the already crowded CDU space.

For a start 3 way type is a must.

[Alex_rcpilot]

I'm not worried that it's black. I can fabricate the top in clear resin.

I think it's easier to find something latched but closer to our 20x9 dimension, and modify it to momentary by putting some spring to the sides, then to find something of a different dimension but momentary, coz if it's too big it won't fit into the already crowded CDU space.

For a start 3 way type is a must.

 

Yes, but I still need to get some momentary rockers at the wrong size, tear one apart and figure out how they did it. Then I will have a reference for how to modify latched ones.:)

 

*Edit:

Will this one make a good candidate?

It doesn't say anything about the button lenght, but looks like 20mm. It's certainly narrow, just 8mm wide. How do you feel about the 28x10.7 installation cutoff? It's the closest 3-way rocker I can find.:music_whistling:

Edited March 19, 2010 by Alex_rcpilot

[Deadman]

Alex I am not sure what you mean by this.Well, there goes three good reasons to mind about the VP solution. My post was not about making a perfect replica but pointing out some of the difficulties using LCD screen on the man panel.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Alex I am not sure what you mean by this.Well, there goes three good reasons to mind about the VP solution. My post was not about making a perfect replica but pointing out some of the difficulties using LCD screen on the man panel.

 

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean to false imply what you didn't say. Initially I thought the difficulties were all about how hard it was to perfect the looks and whatever. But actually I should have just said "I totally agree with you". :)

[rocketeer]

*Edit:

Will this one make a good candidate?

It doesn't say anything about the button lenght, but looks like 20mm. It's certainly narrow, just 8mm wide. How do you feel about the 28x10.7 installation cutoff? It's the closest 3-way rocker I can find.:music_whistling:

 

hey this one looks perfect. Good job! 20 x 8 is very close and it's 3 way.

 

As for the cutoff dimension, it doesn't matter if we bury the whole thing beneath the panel and just let the rocker itself protrude out with 1mm clearance, just as in the CDU picture.

[rocketeer]

Does it come with the option of PC mount? If we use tactile switches for the round and square buttons like push buttons, then we'd need a perf board or pcb. Then might as well make the whole thing all PC type of legs if possible, in case we we go the pcb route. But this is not a must. The rockers can be an exception.

[rocketeer]

Alex, how do you choose tactile switches besides it's dimension? I looked at catalogs and was overwhelmed by the choices.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Does it come with the option of PC mount? If we use tactile switches for the round and square buttons like push buttons, then we'd need a perf board or pcb. Then might as well make the whole thing all PC type of legs if possible, in case we we go the pcb route. But this is not a must. The rockers can be an exception.

 

Did you mean PCB mount? I know the major concern here isn't how the pins go the board, but how far they stand off the mounting surface. The rocker is way too thick to be kept on the same level with tactiles on both ends at the same time. I'd cut a hole in the PCB for the entire rocker switch body to rest in.

 

Got some even better news now - I ordered 6 samples of those rockers with MOMENTARY contacts. That was pure luck. When I asked the dealer whether he had something like that, I actually didn't expect him to say 'yes'. But what the hell.....the rocker is made in Taiwan, and the dealer is from Shanghai. It takes 2 or 3 days for the package to reach me. I'll show you some pictures when I get it.

 

By the way, I've bought some rotary switches like you showed me. Configurable 12 positions, 30 degrees incremental. Had no luck finding 45 degree type. I'm thinking, some of the rotary swiches look like they had much wider spacing between marks. Could you confirm it? If a switch has 90 or 120 degree interval, it might be possible to make it out of the 45 or 30 degree models, by filling up a couple of notches agains the steal balls inside the casing. I've taken one of those apart and examined it. It should be feasible.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Alex, how do you choose tactile switches besides it's dimension? I looked at catalogs and was overwhelmed by the choices.

 

oops, I visit component stores so often that I've almost taken them for granted. Just realized that I've never chosen a tactile from a catalog.:doh:

 

Well, basically I care about three things when it comes to tactiles:

a). Dimension, which you may get a better impression from a catalog rather than an actual sample;

b). The way it feels to press it. You learn that only when you put your finger on it;

c). Lifespan. Catalogs might reflect bits of information on this issue. If you happen to know a good manufacturer which also showed up on the catalog, it would probably be the choice. And sometimes price also tells a story. More expensive parts tend to last longer, but I don't count on this trend all the time. Sometimes I just follow a hunch.:music_whistling:

[rocketeer]

Thanks for the info about tactile swithes. I don't have the luxury of walking up to a shop with tactile switches for feel and touch. Most retail shops here don't carry them. I'd have to drive pretty far to one.

 

You are right the rockers are kinda fat. They'd be very close to the other buttons with the thick body. May have to saw off the protruding sides if it gets to crowded below deck. Great that you found momentary ones.

 

For the rotary switches, usally the same manufacturer makes both 30 and 45 degree types. They are pretty common. And you don't have to guess the degrees. The part numbers in the catalog will say that. Unless you walk into a shop where they sell a bunch of used ones in an open box without packaging then that'd be tricky. Instead of going through the trouble to get the 45 degree, you probably can get it online easily at those chinese websites. They should have it.

 

There are no markings on the switch itself that says explicitly if it's 30 or 45 degree type. But you can tell in two ways. The 30 degree switch has 10 holes in the inner circle at the top that will be covered by a ring with a leg that will be inserted into one of the holes. The 45 degree switch has 6 holes.

 

Another way to tell is if you can try them physically, the 30 degree switch can be turned 11 times. Add one (the initial position) and you have 12 positions, which makes up 360 degress. For the 45 degrees switch you can turn 7 times. Plus one makes 8 turns of 45 degrees again making a full 360 degrees. Just find a switch that is made for 45 degrees instead of going through so much trouble to mod it since it should be common. The 90 degree switch is rare though. I think we'd need one and the site I know that carries it is usually out of stock. Plus I have several spare 45 degree switches. I'm thinking of opening it up, see if I need to cut something or add something to the stops inside to make it skip one stop thus jumping to 90 degree in one turn. Haven't tried that yet. Just an idea for now.

[Avilator]

Regarding the rocker swiches, would it be possible to have a molded/cast plastic part activate a pushbutton on each end with a spring to return it to center?

[Alex_rcpilot]

Regarding the rocker swiches, would it be possible to have a molded/cast plastic part activate a pushbutton on each end with a spring to return it to center?

 

Good thinking. Building a cap to put on top of two individual buttons would work as well. And it's supper thin. :thumbup:

[Alex_rcpilot]

Thanks for the info about tactile swithes. I don't have the luxury of walking up to a shop with tactile switches for feel and touch. Most retail shops here don't carry them. I'd have to drive pretty far to one..

 

Yea, I understand your circumstances. In that case dimensions would be the only thing that matters. Most tactiles sound the same and feel the same though.

 

For the rotary switches, usally the same manufacturer makes both 30 and 45 degree types. They are pretty common. And you don't have to guess the degrees. The part numbers in the catalog will say that. Unless you walk into a shop where they sell a bunch of used ones in an open box without packaging then that'd be tricky. Instead of going through the trouble to get the 45 degree, you probably can get it online easily at those chinese websites. They should have it......

 

I didn't find configurable rotary switches at the store, so I bought this one online. I searched through dozens of dealers but didn't find 45deg. models.

 

The strange thing about this is I usually randomly run into a manufacturer when I look for connectors. While when I deliberately try to find a manufacturer for rotary switches, I can't seem to find any. Guess I just need to keep searching.

 

Another thing that pisses me off is that later in the day, the guy who sold me the rockers online came up to me on the messenger and apologized for his mistake - the momentary model isn't a totally different fat-*ss rocker, not the slim long model we were talking about. So I told him to ship a few of each model, and we're back to the modification topic. Talk about that later.

[Deadman]

try here http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/hardware_new.php

[Avilator]

Some cool stuff in that link, Deadman.

[Alex_rcpilot]

try here http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/hardware_new.php

 

Cool, I like the knobs.:thumbup:

[rocketeer]

Yes the knobs are nice but expensive at $12.95 compared to what I got for $4 and fabricate six from there. But I guess not everyone bothers to do fabrication and just buys finished products. If you need a lot of knobs buying at this price though will be very costly.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Honestly I'm not planning to buy too many things from abroad. I got very limited money and some spare labor, lol

 

But still love those things out there. Really admirable and inspiring.