Flaming--Cliffs--2.0

[GGTharos]

FC2 will not be a revolution, but people who liked to use gamey tactics might in many cases end up having a revelation.

 

It will not be perfect, again, there were no FM/Sensor code changes etc, just tweaks.

 

As far as aircraft FMs go, they were adjusted to match real life aircraft charts as best as possible in all cases. Once more, it might not be exactly perfect, but definitely much more realistic than in FC.

 

I most certain hope to see better tactics online - then this sim, even if it is a lite sim, will be one of the best BVR simulations out there despite some of the known drabacks.

[theGozr]

As far as aircraft FMs go, they were adjusted to match real life aircraft charts as best as possible in all cases

 

Well this is really hard to do since the planes are all scripted with a very simplified FM ..( Even just a simple loop a MiG29 wont do it... ) but if the SU25's have at list a minimum of 6dof that would be by it self a big step..

 

I wish to see more passionate talk about this than some missile .. at list we could fly decently on a "FLIGH" combat sim and maybe able to do some dogfight..

Edited January 14, 2010 by theGozr

[GGTharos]

Actually it is easy to do. The results may be imperfect in extreme conditions but they will work out well enough.

 

The SFM is so far a more complex FM than I've seen you code ;)

 

Well this is really hard to do since the planes are all scripted with a very simplified FM ..( Even just a simple loop a MiG29 wont do it... ) but if the SU25's have at list a minimum of 6dof that would be by it self a big step..

[theGozr]

( Even just a simple loop a MiG29 wont do it... ) Tharos, this not an extreme maneuver ;)

 

I understand what you say ofcourse but after many years going for a decade almost the FM simplified is still XBOX's like .. Now hopefully with the new tools we could open aircraft slots and work on it ( ala Rise of Flight style MOD ON and MOD OFF )

[*Rage*]

Missiles are for girls.

 

Real men Gunzo;)

[tflash]

I'm with GG on this, theGozr; it is not because ED did even better with the Su-25 AFM that their basic SFM isn't good. In fact, with such FM you can make a perfect simulation that fits your needs. There is nothing wrong as such with table-based or scripted FM's, in fact, they are efficient with CPU and enable advanced simulation of very specific situations. If you imagine that professional simulators, e.g. to train a pilot to recover an A-330 in a stall condition, are using only real-time modelling than you are just wrong.

 

Simulation always serves a goal, and you just program the software to match that. With its AFM, ED wanted to be able to model flight with an advanced damage model. Very well done indeed, just like their previous work on the flanker FM and derivatives.

[theGozr]

;)

 

+1

 

--

 

 

Guys take the SU25T/TM don't get any missiles fuel to 30/35 % and stream full speed around and trough the mountains and land successfully.. you see how fun it can be.. of course you could meet an other SU25 for some dancing and woooTT! ;)

[theGozr]

SFM is not satisfactory on hard maneuvers , now if you are doing climb rate or max speed etc.. well that it is not the problem, the problem is when you fight you will enter in hard maneuvering witch a combat simulator should have IMO. A real simulator is a very different beast for very specific application.

 

In Real life i do test aircraft and to me it's hard to fly a Lockon's MiG29 and ear arguments about a missile details.. many of you guys are looking at papers and charts but rare are the ones that did really pressed a real trigger. I never did this my self but real hard maneuver flying .. hell yeas.!!!!

Edited January 14, 2010 by theGozr

[104th_Crunch]

Gozr, I guess you wait for DCS. People are working hard to do what they can with Flaming Cliffs and I am happy they are.

[theGozr]

yes agreed..

[EtherealN]

many of you guys are looking at papers and charts but rare are the ones that did really pressed a real trigger.

 

While I don't really follow your argument, this thing here struck my interest.

 

You are aware that ED has Subject Matter Experts tied to it that have decorations and titles such as "Hero Of Russia", "Sniper Pilot" and so on?

 

But on the whole MiG29 thing - you're saying it can't perform a looping or that it doesn't do it right? If the former - you're wrong. :P If the latter - prove it? And if you want to complain about "looking at papers and charts" I guess you'll be proving it by hopping into your own MiG and showing us? ;)

 

Until then, you might want to realize that it is impossible to make FC2 have "perfect" simulation, at least if it's going to be 15 dollars for the package. If you (and sufficiently many others) are willing to pay 50 dollars per aircraft, probably up-front to make sure there's financing for the whole project, then you could have those perfect flight models. And unless you want to pay that price, and wait the time, I really don't know why you are complaining so much... (Though I heard a rumor about a product that covers that niche pretty well, called DCS. :P )

Edited January 15, 2010 by EtherealN

[theGozr]

Ok i'll promess you to show you me doing a loop and hanging in the air locked with out moving ... done deal.. ( did you at list tried it yourself ? ;) )

 

Thi sis nothing to do with ED dev.. but members arguing about missiles.

[GGTharos]

What is your problem with arguing about missiles? Do you have a problem with getting as much realism as possible out of the sim as it is?

[104th_Crunch]

If you don't discuss missiles as much as the aircraft you may as well be playing FlightSim X.

[theGozr]

Yes exactly the case.. talking aircraft here with some it's really taboo..

As soon as we talk FM i receive negative point or banned.. ;)

 

How many of you tried to do a tale slide for example of a MiG29 or a Su27 in Lokon or a simple loop slow speed or even stall.. ? am i the only one that see the script kicking in? refusing to believe that it's bad... that is wrong like EtherealN above.

 

It's the same feeling when you are going to air re-fuel and Bamm!! the script again coming in and taking all the pleasure and difficulty away..

 

How many of you have actually did some aerobatic on any real aircraft,... glider, ... ultra light maybe ? .. because if you did it would break your heart !

 

Tharos: obviously it is you that have a problem wanting the Sim to have a sastifactory FM or at list an un-scripted maneuvers or stalls.. I can't talk about Missile i have no knowledge of those weapons but it is good to discuss about it ofcourse.

And one more thing I wish to ear what the "Hero Of Russia", "Sniper Pilot" have to say of maneuvering a MiG29 in Lockon beside shooting a missile.. and as real pilots they should have also a good experience on flight sim or Lockon at list..

Edited January 15, 2010 by theGozr

[Fahhh]

I'm not aware of the way Lockon simulates the FMs, but as a part of scientific project, I have been simulating other planes through the Matlab software for quite some time now. Simulating 30 seconds of flight could take anywhere from 5-6 minutes to an hour CPU time, depending on the complexity of the model. And I'm talking here flight model only, no fancy graphics or anything, pure calcultaions. And this is performed on a 3Ghz dual-core CPU.

 

So if you want a good FM, I think ED could implement it, but the hardware cost would be too high for the moment. And when you start simplifying here and there you always lose model and response information, but still retain the main characteristics. And that's what it counts in a commercial simulator made to be widely available...

[mibsk]

How many of you tried to do a tale slide for example of a MiG29 or a Su27 in Lokon or a simple loop slow speed or even stall.. ? am i the only one that see the script kicking in? refusing to believe that it's bad... that is wrong like EtherealN above.

 

It's the same feeling when you are going to air re-fuel and Bamm!! the script again coming in and taking all the pleasure and difficulty away..

 

The continuation of DCS series (as such) shall make you happy ... in future ... we all gotta wait ... :cry:

 

I do not have big expectations from FC2 ... I expect it's gonna be better than the FC itself ... no miracles ... few nice surprises potentially ... what is promissed to be there is quite clear ... (so potentially no naugty surprises ... :joystick:)

 

I'm really looking forward for the MP ... while saying hello from the cannopy on a low altitude flight to the shark squadron ... or vice-versa, saying thanks to them guys in the frogs that just got rid of the baaad SAMs over FEBA that were preventing me from head on ...

 

We all gonna have lot of fun ... see you in the virtual FC2 skies ... :thumbup:

[theGozr]

Agreed fahhh but do you need extra hardware for the SU25T .. ? ;)

 

Anyway The dev team knows this and yes the best would be to have some king of Flaming Cliff Tools for modding or wait for DCS..

 

You are right mibsk.

[TAIPAN_]

Until then, you might want to realize that it is impossible to make FC2 have "perfect" simulation, at least if it's going to be 15 dollars for the package. If you (and sufficiently many others) are willing to pay 50 dollars per aircraft, probably up-front to make sure there's financing for the whole project, then you could have those perfect flight models. And unless you want to pay that price, and wait the time, I really don't know why you are complaining so much... (Though I heard a rumor about a product that covers that niche pretty well, called DCS. :P )

 

I will pay :)

 

But I won't wait :megalol:

 

Seriously I love FC2 just for the Su-25T, that has the AFM and that's what I'll fly. It will be my DCS: Su-25T while DCS doesn't yet have fixed wing.

 

:pilotfly:

[theGozr]

+1 TAIPAN_ ;)

[Panzertard]

Agreed fahhh but do you need extra hardware for the SU25T .. ? ;)

 

Anyway The dev team knows this and yes the best would be to have some king of Flaming Cliff Tools for modding or wait for DCS..

 

You are right mibsk.

No, but the problem is time and resources to redesign the flightmodel of several planes for this upgrade.

Simply put, FC2.0 is a upgrade, which will keep the existing FM for all planes, while other features are improved - and other bugs are fixed.

 

Getting a new AFM for all planes is out of the scope of this upgrade.

We'll have to wait for DCS.

[Fahhh]

Agreed fahhh but do you need extra hardware for the SU25T .. ? ;)

 

This only tells how well the dev team has worked to simplify the model and yet keep it at a high level of realism. And I'm quite sure it's a lot of work, time and consequently a lot money to be spent on this...

[104th_Crunch]

theGozr :love: Su-25T

 

hehe, I like it a lot to.

[cool_t]

DCS? we will wait.

 

As far as lomac- and ED-crunching scripts and numbers for flight physics, thats there "Business Plan" 2 update, release, and market the information and/or "Game-updates" as seen fit for the development and "Life span" of LOAMC series.

 

As far as F-C- 2.0 for us people who dont test the product or know what has been changed we will wait and hope for the best; we just hope that as consumers that ED- has made the proper "Business Plan" move 2 satisfy there consumer base in this update.

 

If one is going to sell and advertise apples that taste like carrots a firms consumer base will move to a firm that sells a product that satisfies ones needs.

 

F-C-1.0 was cool we had good times but we also learned allot about supply and demand in a "Global Market" it does not matter how large or small a firm is or how many products one sells; proper goods and services will make or break any firm in a competitive consumer based product industry.

 

Collective knowledge from ones consumer base also can define development of a firms product "How well a firm provides goods and services" to its consumers. If one goes 2 a place 2 eat and they have repeated good service they will return....... I truly hope that F-C 2.0 has at least addressed many of the "Holes" in F-C 1.0

 

F-C 2.0 from the sounds of it and at least hearing that the ET missile has been addressed should have many pilots thinking about there next move, in my eyes this will drastically change the battle field in Hyper-Lobby.....

[Pilotasso]

I'm not aware of the way Lockon simulates the FMs, but as a part of scientific project, I have been simulating other planes through the Matlab software for quite some time now. Simulating 30 seconds of flight could take anywhere from 5-6 minutes to an hour CPU time, depending on the complexity of the model. And I'm talking here flight model only, no fancy graphics or anything, pure calcultaions. And this is performed on a 3Ghz dual-core CPU.

 

So if you want a good FM, I think ED could implement it, but the hardware cost would be too high for the moment. And when you start simplifying here and there you always lose model and response information, but still retain the main characteristics. And that's what it counts in a commercial simulator made to be widely available...

 

I dont think you can compare MATLAB to actual FM calculations in real time.

I hated MATLAB for several reasons. One of them is that it calculates things the brute force way.

IF you Dump 4th degree interpolations, Navier stokes equation, or any thing ralated to taylor series it will destroy your CPU resources. Theres alot in it that you can simplify without impacting error much but saving lots of CPU cycles.

 

 

I have donne a car suspension simulation running in real time in excell that would take days to do in MATLAB. With a few smart simplifications, simple balance of forces equations, producing accelerations, speeds and movements, avoiding complicated interpolations and Nth degree calculations and saves incredible ammount of CPU resources.

 

 

And this my friend, can only be donne using a fully custumized, old fashioned brain deducted smart equation systems, wich can be processed in real time, and with much much simpler calculus. Thats why it works with Su-25 AFM on current machines.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Pilotasso