Which Joystick...

[Funkyjazz]

I know, this is a boring question. I would appreciate if i could get an answer to my questions.

 

Right now im using a Logitech Sidewinder Extreme Pro 3D. Its about 5 years old and im looking for a good replacement.

 

There is a difference between flying FS9/FSX or a combat sim concerning the wearing of a joystick. A friend has the same Logitech and only flies FS9. After 4 years its still brandnew...

 

I dont want to spent 350 euros for the new saitek X-65F. Allthough it looks great and the stick moves due to pressure = no moving parts = no wear down (hopefully), its to expensive.

 

Im thinking about a X52 or the X52 pro. Ive searched a lot on internet but there are still questions unanswered.

 

- I read alot about the deadzone problem on the X52. This link explains how to fix it but im not going to fumble around with a new product.

Does the X52 pro also has the same deadzone problem?

http://www.mektek.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=139226

 

- Many complaints are about the strength of the spring regarding the X52. As ive red, the X52 pro has a tighter spring. Is this really a problem ( a loose spring) or is that related to a persons favor?

 

- And last but not least: the profiles for LOMAC. Are there good X52 profiles that make the name "HOTAS" worthy?

 

Thanks in advance to read and hopefully answer my "boring" questions.

 

Grtz.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Funkyjazz

[Tez]

I use X52 for 4 years or so. I've seen a lot of them (yes, we use them too). Excellent design and durability. The only problem are resistors - they are quite bad compared to CH (so it shouldn't be a problem from Logitech users' point of view).

 

Everything wrote above is my IMHO.

 

You'll easily find profiles by searching the forum. AFAIK there was a dedicated thread.

[159th_Viper]

Depends on how Fussy you are wrt your expectations. Insofar as Precision and Durability is concerned, I had both a Saitek X52 and Saitek Pro and were in all honesty Rubbish - so much so that they Winged their way back to the factory after about a month of Tinkering. Gripes were Hardware and Software-related and quite Frankly Sub-Standard for the Capital Outlay. Then again, also depends on how much Flight Hours you put in.

 

As far as I am concerned, 2 Choices: Cougar or CH-Products. Depending on where you are, CH Products are vastly overpriced (UK), which left me with one choice only - Cougar. Vastly Superior in every aspect to Saitek for the same price at the time of Purchase - No Brainer :)

[Mugenjin]

it really depends on your budget.

 

imho if you don't want to spend that kinda money, the x52 pro is perfectly fine. overall the production quality is good and so far I didn't encounter any problems at all, neither hard nor software wise, since I bought some 2 years ago.

 

building a profile is quite easy once you've figured out the programming software. surely it's possible to get a real HOTAS setup; I build my own but it can easily take a couple of hours to get a well thought out profile.

[Funkyjazz]

Thanks for the feedback! While i have got the complete Saitek Pro flight steering wheel including the rudder pedals and two extra throttle quadrants to fly the PMDG 747 in FS9, i set up my own "Hotas". Yeah...its truly amateur work but so far so good...

Ive sprayed some cleaning lubrcant into the pots of the logitech and it works fine again.

 

In the Netherlands near Schiphol is the Aviation Megastore. I called them and i can test both X52 and X52 pro joysticks. Ik will let you know what its going to be...or not to be.

 

Grtz. Funk

[Funkyjazz]

UPDATE on the Saitek X52 (pro)

 

Hi,

 

Read before you buy!!

 

Just went to a store to test the demo models of the X52 and X52 Pro. Came back with empty hands...

 

Read the story at the Saitek Form: http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?t=18457

 

Grtz Funk

[S77th-konkussion]

If you are confident that you want to make combat flight simulations a serious hobby- then you should invest in a 2 or 3 piece HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) Obviously this consists of a Flight stick, a Separate throttle, and a set of rudder pedals. Non combat flight sims are best played with a yoke, and rudder pedals.

 

When just starting out there are many considerations:

Level of computer & peripheral literacy (can I handle the setup & programming)

Budget

Quality,

Future needs.. a track ir (you need this NOW), needed computer upgrades, etc... Budget related I suppose. If you need equipment & upgrades you may need to make difficult decisions on what to spend on now..

 

Brands and my opinion:

 

 

 

Saitek: Most popular. Reasonably priced. Lots of programming space, relatively easy software. Quality & reliability- fair due to inconsistency. Typical huge corporation chinsy cheap construction. I've had 3 Saitek X45's. All of them broke in less than 2 years. Many many X52 users out there. Many reporting trouble free ownership, many of them report problems, broken stuff. The el-cheapo non pro X52 could be a good "starter" HOTAS, but If you long for more-you'll have to learn new software, etc.. New X65 model coming out soon.

 

 

Logitech: A lot like Saitek, but they've been mostly AWFUL. Specialized in mostly super cheap/single piece junk over the years- but apparently-not anymore. The new G940 looks the part- and managed to secure a snazzy inital review. Now some time has passed- and the commentary is decidedly... typical old Logitech.

Software is looking really bad so far. I wouldn't buy this thing just yet. Let's see if they are the same ole company they always have been. Lots of reports of VERY sloppy inputs, but the jury is still out on whether it's hardware or software. Leave it on the shelf for now. $400 is a ridiculous number for what might be junk. You can buy Saitek's junk for 1/4 to 1/2 that figure.

 

Ch Products: This is what I now own. Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals. Top shelf liquor here. Quality & precision UNSURPASSED. Support- second to none. Software- Astounding capabilities with both programming keys to advanced scripting..

read this: (scroll down a bit) http://www.freewebs.com/konkussion/downloadsinc.htm

Not cheap-(between 85-105 per piece) but if you replace a broken Saitek X52 one time-(likely!!) you've easily exceeded the $$ on a 3 piece CH setup that IS NOT going to break. The CH MANAGER software is NOT noob friendly, but the support MORE than makes up for this. Simply put- advanced capabilities require advanced software.

 

Thrustmaster Cougar: Best looking stick. Has rotaries- something CH does not have, and can be fairly criticized for. Metallic (that's metallic- not STEEL like some delusional people will say) Somewhat expensive- no rudders. The very capable & dedicated community of owners is the only real support. Foxy software has very good capability, was originally written by the engineer now working for CH Products, the author of CH manager. Some say it is OK right out of the box, most accounts I have seen over the years say that the many mods- OUTRAGEOUSLY EXPENSIVE MODS- are a "must have" to get the most out of it. The metallic feel is awesome, but does not neccessarily equate to quality. Have read many reports of extensive issues, but I also know several guys that would take up arms to protect their Cougars. A perfectly valid option.

 

WHATEVER YOU GET make SURE you plan & budget to get a Track IR too. www.naturalpoint.com/trackir If budget is an issue- skip the rudder pedals for now, and get this device. It's THAT important.

Edited February 20, 2010 by S77th-konkussion

[talisman]

dont forget the Thrustmaster Warthog is coming this year around May.

[Griffin]

Or hey, as you already have rudder pedals and a brand new Logitech 3D, you could make a nice FrankenHOTAS like I did. Get a CH Pro Throttle and you will have a full HOTAS! It will be guaranteed great quality and more buttons than you will ever need for about the same price as X52 and you can keep using your old trusty Logitech 3D.

[Funkyjazz]

UPDATE

 

Hi,

 

Ive been in the store and flew for 15 min with the X52 and X52 pro in a cessna FS9. I must admit, outside the centre they are sharp. But i couldnt get over the centre margin.

 

Unfortunatly (or something like that), they didnt have the CH Fighterstick. I went to another store and they had a demo model of the TM Hotas Cougar. Well...this is the very best ive ever felt in my hands regarding build quality of a unit. But i read a lot on the internet about modding ect. Its not my thing.

 

Since i have the Saitek Pro Flight steeringwheel, rudders and two extra throttle quadrants (FS9), i now use a throttle quadrant for the engines with 6 extra buttons on the quadrant, the Saitek rudder and the logitech. So far i can help myself.

 

Ive red something about a new TM unit comming up in may? the replica of the WT A-10? Well, im gonna wait. First i want a good impression of the new Saitek X - 65F. Then i wait for the TM comming to the market.

 

The thing are the reviews. Ive found one solid review of the TM Hotas Cougar. Toms hardware opened it up showing pictures from the inside. THAT is what i wanna see! I want to know the technics they use inside a unit. So i really hope someone is going to openup the Saitek X-65F for a GOOD decent review.

 

Meanwhile i S&D in the magnificent game: LOMAC!! RULES!

[joey45]

Remember that the X65F is Force Sensing, ie the stick does not move..... at all.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Actually, it moves a tiny bit, IIRC.

 

Not much, but enough for you to get what's going on.

[Funkyjazz]

Yeah, ive red about it. I think it will be a matter of growing accustomed to it. But what i also read is that is does not have moving parts inside. Still then, i use force to let the electronics know that i want to bank a direction. this force that i apply to the stick is a certain ammount of energy. This energy is translated into a elementary component (i do LOVE googles translation:D), which takes care of the acual banking. As far as i know, where energy is, there is a certain factor of wear and tear.

 

Concerning the movement, as ive red, the actual F16 stick moves and X factor from the base. So lets wait for the (hopefully) good reviews.

 

Has anybody seen pics of the upcomming TM Warthog?

[S77th-konkussion]

http://www.thrustmaster.com/

 

A flash movie right on the front page. (looks updated from before)

[Sokol1_br]

So i really hope someone is going to openup the Saitek X-65F for a GOOD decent review.

 

Someone did it, with internal pictures:

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/x52pro_review/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/x52inside/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/Aviator/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/st290/

 

Know MODs for actual HOTAS:

 

Cougar:

Replacement gimbal (original have tendency to break in heavy use) for CNC made with ball bearings. Drop in HALL sensor or DIY HALL Sensor to replace pot's.

 

CH F-16 Fighterstick/PRO Throttle

"Condon" to stiffen springs. DIY raised hand rest for people with normal/small hands. Velcro detent's in Throttle. Rotaries in Throttle.

 

Saitek X-52

CD container disk to stiffen springs. Relocation of magnets to better linearity of HALL sensor response. Replace of HALL sensor with MaRS (in Russian market)

 

Saitek X-52 PRO

Relocation of magnets to better linearity of HALL sensor response. Replace of HALL sensor with MaRS (in Russian market)

 

Logitech G-940

?

 

Sokol1_Br

[Funkyjazz]

Someone did it, with internal pictures:

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/x52pro_review/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/x52inside/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/Aviator/

 

http://www.saitek.ru/other/st290/

 

Know MODs for actual HOTAS:

 

Cougar:

Replacement gimbal (original have tendency to break in heavy use) for CNC made with ball bearings. Drop in HALL sensor or DIY HALL Sensor to replace pot's.

 

CH F-16 Fighterstick/PRO Throttle

"Condon" to stiffen springs. DIY raised hand rest for people with normal/small hands. Velcro detent's in Throttle. Rotaries in Throttle.

 

Saitek X-52

CD container disk to stiffen springs. Relocation of magnets to better linearity of HALL sensor response. Replace of HALL sensor with MaRS (in Russian market)

 

Saitek X-52 PRO

Relocation of magnets to better linearity of HALL sensor response. Replace of HALL sensor with MaRS (in Russian market)

 

Logitech G-940

?

 

Sokol1_Br

 

Thanks!! Ive googled on everything but couldnt get te pics. To be honest, from what ive seen at the homepage of TM, the Warthog seems truly brutal. Prob. its going to be brutal to my wallet also but from what i can see oh..baby...come to papa.

 

Im loosing my patients overhere:music_whistling:

[topdog]

I've been using ~10 year old Cyborg 3D until a month ago (I wanted a hotas again having had one in the past, but until recently not really playing a game that needed more functionality than a basic stick could give - the Cyborg was just fine for me in lomac but it wasn't really up to scratch for me for blackshark), and so picked up an X52 pro. I'm content with it, but it's not perfect, a few niggles I encountered:

 

1. Of the 3 toggle switches at front of the flightstick, the left most one doesn't always action if you lift it directly in the middle of the switch. Lifting it on the right side of the switch is fine. I'm sure they're not all like this.

 

2. Others have noted the cable joining the throttle and flightstick isn't the best coupling device and falls out easy; I'd agree with that, but a quick check before I start using it after picking it up to make sure they're secure is fine and it doesn't fall out after that. If I forget to check, then it can sometimes happen.

 

3. Stiction with the main shaft. I grabbed some silicone grease to help, it's helped a bit but not much, certainly didn't just cure the problem for me as I'd hoped. Also what helps is having the stick on a stable platform (flat/stuck to the desk etc.), when it's on a loose platform like if you just rest it on your leg/thigh, it makes it less effective at overcoming thsi problem. This is by far the worst / most annoying issue I've encountered so far, and I may just adjust the springs on the shaft since they seem to be causing it (my old stick has single spring centering and it's fine, no stiction, and isn't too soft/weak either).

 

4. If you switch USB ports it doesn't pick it up properly. May be an OS problem, but it recognises it as a basic HID game controller and causes the Saitek Profiler to not launch and most of the LEDs/settings on the controllers are switched off. It's easy enough to fix though, just locate the device in Device Manager, tell it to update drivers, then it finds the right one (already installed) and everything comes back to life again. Really not bothered by this at all, but if someone else encounters it and doesn't understand the cause, I'd bet on it being frustrating to experience.

 

 

Am I disappointed at these on a piece of non-cheap hardware? A bit, yes, but once I overcome the stiction one the rest are trivial. Seems some people don't have stiction issues at all with theirs either. I don't have any problems with stick travel, if I don't move it, it doesn't move, and as soon as I move it, I get instant response. You shouldn't try these things out without at least having them plugged in and able to test the responses through the OS Control Panel or similar.

 

That Thrustmaster Warthog looks extremely impressive; I may just knuckle down into getting one when they come out.

 

But mind you, over the past 25+ years I've been gaming, I've tried them all.. CH, Thrustmaster, Saitek, and none of them have had products that didn't have some issue somewhere in my experience, my TM F1 wheel pots were DOA and had to be mailed replacements, I had erratic drifting over time mid-game with CH products that I had to constantly trim for, whilst others of theirs I've had were all just fine.

[Sokol1_br]

TM banner now say: Available Spring 2010.

 

Sokol1

[Funkyjazz]

Well...i think ive got a sollution. First im gonna sit out for a good solid review on the X65. After that i make a decision. Probably im gonna buy a seperate throttle and use in combi with my Logitech. Spring its...its just..to far away. Im a bit of a "think about wanna buy" guy:D.

 

Gaming for 15 years now and there is 1 thing ive learned buying new parts for my pc: never buy the newest stuff. Allthough sometimes its very hard not to jump in and go for that fancy looking, hardcore PC part.

I can remember Falcon 3 on 4 1,44 MB disks on a 386 SX 25 MHz pc with the Microsoft Sidewinder Force. Where is this world going to...let it GOGOGO!

[71st_Mastiff]

Well...i think ive got a sollution. First im gonna sit out for a good solid review on the X65. After that i make a decision. Probably im gonna buy a seperate throttle and use in combi with my Logitech. Spring its...its just..to far away. Im a bit of a "think about wanna buy" guy:D.

 

Gaming for 15 years now and there is 1 thing ive learned buying new parts for my pc: never buy the newest stuff. Allthough sometimes its very hard not to jump in and go for that fancy looking, hardcore PC part.

I can remember Falcon 3 on 4 1,44 MB disks on a 386 SX 25 MHz pc with the Microsoft Sidewinder Force. Where is this world going to...let it GOGOGO!

 

Speak of the devil. lol

 

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_094a.html

[LawnDart]

Speak of the devil. lol

 

http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_094a.html

 

I was just about to post that same link here.

 

Good feature article by SimHQ on the various HOTAS currently avaialble.

[topdog]

Took my X52 pro apart yesterday - new fault had developed with it and curiousity got the better of me even though it was under warranty.

 

I can see why they have such hit and miss fail rates now - the combination of poor wire quality and even poorer securing of the wires in their solder joints that are prone to some movement (i.e. between the base of the joystick up the shaft) was pretty bad.

 

The ones between the center shaft and the 'head' with the hat switches was done just as bad but at least these wires don't tend to move except simple gravity and inertia.

 

Everything else was up to standard; the pcbs and components were well placed and secured, microswitches and LED fittings sound, hall sensor areas and the two-stage trigger all good. Just let down by flimsy wiring and flimsy workmanship on those same wires. Silly really, so easy and cheap to fix, I can't imagine it's cost effective for them to deal with warranty returns instead.

 

I'll be fixing mine and putting it back together again tomorrow (have already tested that the wiring I fix is going to do the job). If I ever get the itch to mod it at all I can do so more fearlessly now, otherwise I can understand why people get aggravated at problems like this when shelling out a fair amount.

 

It is close to being an awesome and reliable stick if they'd only make some minor low cost alterations.

 

I'll probably go ahead and impulse-buy the TM warthog as soon as I can get my hands on one, I don't think I'd be looking to tinker/mod with that at all though :D

[Funkyjazz]

Well guys,

 

Instead of buying a new hotas i spended my money on a new rig. Its a I7-860 oc'ed to 4,0 with 4 GB OCZ DDR 3 1866 Platinum LV mem.

It allmost seems to me that i have a new LOMAC FC :D.

Quoting Sade: Its a smooth operator!

[71st_Mastiff]

Well guys,

 

Instead of buying a new hotas i spended my money on a new rig. Its a I7-860 oc'ed to 4,0 with 4 GB OCZ DDR 3 1866 Platinum LV mem.

It allmost seems to me that i have a new LOMAC FC :D.

Quoting Sade: Its a smooth operator!

 

you can probably play that song at the same time your flying in BS or LOFC..:thumbup: