Advice on a forcefeedback stick to be used with BS.

[Wazoo]

Well.... I see Matt is working with Logitech on their issues.

 

Has anyone at ED commented on the Saitek issue?

 

As FF sticks are few in number, I would hope that the ED devs have at least seen the issue for themselves.

[CyBerkut]

Answering that question is an exercise best left to the forum's search function. :) I don't trust my memory on that, and besides, there are likely to be posts that I haven't seen/read.

 

I do seem to recall a posting that indicated that the problem would be brought to the developers' attention.

[AussieFX]

Can someone from ED confirm where the problem lies? If it's a quirk of the game that can't be fixed then I can live with that but I would like to know if they have at least addressed the situation with FFB. I have never played IL2 but it seems strange that the stick works correctly in that game and not BS.

 

I have both the msFFB2 and G940 and I prefer the G940 but the centre slop does need looking at.

 

Apparently Logitech are doing a full software rewrite so it will take some time.

[ericinexile]

G940 works fine for me. Try this for FC 2 (Black Shark is a little different). In the Logitech Profiler have FF and FFB Spring set at 100%. Have damper (whatever that is) set to 0. In the Axis settings, set X to 0% sensitivity (full curve) and a deadzone of 5-10 (roll trim center doesn't change much). Set Y to 0% sensitivity and zero deadzone. In the DCS settings, no curves, no deadzones, and FFB to your liking. For the F15 I have 80% FFB and 0 shake.

[MBot]

Can someone from ED confirm where the problem lies? If it's a quirk of the game that can't be fixed then I can live with that but I would like to know if they have at least addressed the situation with FFB. I have never played IL2 but it seems strange that the stick works correctly in that game and not BS.

 

I have both the msFFB2 and G940 and I prefer the G940 but the centre slop does need looking at.

 

Apparently Logitech are doing a full software rewrite so it will take some time.

 

The G940 doesn't work flawless in Il-2 either. The FFB-deathzone is there too, making flying hands-off with any kind of precision next to impossible.

 

For some it seems that the FFB-deathzone is no big problem, for me it is a major flaw of the G940. Flying the F-15 in FC2 and looking over the shoulder, I almost always bank the aircraft because my hand cannot feel the center position of the stick. In Il-2 it is less pronounced because the aircraft are generally less twitchy, but it is there none the less. So the problem is definitely in Logistics corner.

[Wags]

For those with a MS FFB stick, please provide as much detail as you can about what you are seeing and your setup. We are having great difficulty reproducing FFB problems with the MS FFB.

 

Thanks

[ericinexile]

The G940 doesn't work flawless in Il-2 either. The FFB-deathzone is there too, making flying hands-off with any kind of precision next to impossible.

 

For some it seems that the FFB-deathzone is no big problem, for me it is a major flaw of the G940. Flying the F-15 in FC2 and looking over the shoulder, I almost always bank the aircraft because my hand cannot feel the center position of the stick. In Il-2 it is less pronounced because the aircraft are generally less twitchy, but it is there none the less. So the problem is definitely in Logistics corner.

 

Try my setup from a few posts back. I don't think you will find the Eagle to be twitchy at all. It's solid, stable, and responsive. Not directed at you MBot, but for those new to FFB, it's a bit like the real world whereby you need to relax your grip on the stick every few seconds to make sure you are trimmed properly. If the "center slop" is very bothersome, then trim either slight forward or aft so that a little pressure is required. I do this in the real world as well.

[CyBerkut]

For those with a MS FFB stick, please provide as much detail as you can about what you are seeing and your setup. We are having great difficulty reproducing FFB problems with the MS FFB.

 

Thanks

 

Matt, thanks for chiming in again! I just re-read the thread... with the possible exception of Damli, I don't think anybody is having trouble with the ol' MS SW FFB2. (I guess you could be asking for anybody, though...) Damli's description sounds like his situation may just be related to an old/worn stick...

 

Just from reading the message traffic here and in other threads, the most common FFB related problems seem to be the Logitech G940 (which you're already talking to Logitech about) and the Saitek Evo Force.

 

Thanks for being so hands-on with things!

[MBot]

Try my setup from a few posts back. I don't think you will find the Eagle to be twitchy at all. It's solid, stable, and responsive.

 

I tried your setting (without deathzone) and I can't really see a difference regarding the centering problem. The stick still suffers from the FFB-deathzone and requires a constant effort to keep it centered by hand. Flying with a relaxed hand or even trimmed and hands off is next to impossible. The stick will slightly tip in any direction on its own.

 

Adding a deathzone is no option for me, as I need a stick for precise controls.

[ericinexile]

Roger that. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe your stick is having issues. There is enough centering force on mine to allow for flying hands-off for significant periods of time. I generally have the FC 2 options set at 75 % Force and 10 % shake. When I trim for an attitude the plane stays there until a apply pressure to change that attitude. Black Shark is even more solid because I keep the force at 100 %. For planes, that force is too much due to the amount of tension needed for full deflection.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Wags I use a MS FF2 and I have had no problems at all. I did not even have to adjust anything. The BS flew perfect right out of the box. I will note however I have the version with the grey trigger. There is also a version with a RED trigger that is supposed to be higher resolution. Perhaps he has the red trigger version. Thats the only info I can provide that might go toward fixing a "problem".

[Huckle]

My only complaint is the hat stick moves the shkval too slowly.

 

Try this:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=749282&highlight=shkval+speed#post749282

[AussieFX]

The G940 doesn't work flawless in Il-2 either. The FFB-deathzone is there too, making flying hands-off with any kind of precision next to impossible.

 

For some it seems that the FFB-deathzone is no big problem, for me it is a major flaw of the G940. Flying the F-15 in FC2 and looking over the shoulder, I almost always bank the aircraft because my hand cannot feel the center position of the stick. In Il-2 it is less pronounced because the aircraft are generally less twitchy, but it is there none the less. So the problem is definitely in Logistics corner.

Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't trying to stir anything up, just confirming that ED know about it and they do.

 

Cheers.

[ericinexile]

Roger that. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe your stick is having issues. There is enough centering force on mine to allow for flying hands-off for significant periods of time. I generally have the FC 2 options set at 75 % Force and 10 % shake. When I trim for an attitude the plane stays there until a apply pressure to change that attitude. Black Shark is even more solid because I keep the force at 100 %. For planes, that force is too much due to the amount of tension needed for full deflection.

 

Quoting myself...how conceited is that? Mbot, just so you don't think your G940 is more problematic than it is, I tested the F15 a little more deeply. I don't normally fly it so I didn't realize that it is so sensitive at low speeds. And you are right that the combination of this stick and this plane is less than perfect. I did find that, in addition to the full curve in the Logitech Profiler, adding a slight amount of pitch curve in the F-15 axis options helped alot.

[average_pilot]

For those with a MS FFB stick, please provide as much detail as you can about what you are seeing and your setup. We are having great difficulty reproducing FFB problems with the MS FFB.

 

Thanks

No FFB problems with MS FFB2. I only tried to explain that the axis deadzone should follow the stick's center when it changes due to trimming (with sitck's center I mean the position at which the centering forces pushes the stick to, not the physical center, I don't know what words to use for each concept).

For example, if you are flying at very low speed with the stick trimmed at 3/4 back of the range for that speed, the deadzone should be effective there, not at (0,0).

The same goes for the curves.

 

------

 

In another matter:

I bought my MSFFB2 a year ago. It was impossible to fly smooth and stable with it at the beggining, specially after several years of X-52. The unwanted banking when I wanted to fly straight en level was the more anoying. But nowadays I can fly pretty much like I did with the X-52. Not equal, that's true, but a lot better than those firsts days. I had to learnt to release the pressure of my hand on the stick when looking over my shoulders to avoid unwanted control and to feel when the stick is well trimmed and can be released keeping it's position.

I don't like that FFB deadzone or free play as I call it. It's just that right now you can't have it all in a single joystick, and if I have to choose, I prefer the organic feel of FFB to the cold precission of the X-52. I can't fly as well as before but to me all this is just for fun, nothing serious like it is for others.

 

I love the FFB topic, almost as much as the S-3D topic :D

[mikey]

It would be really nice indeed if the joystick center would move up with the trimmed position. It would actually fix a lot of problems I've been having with the g940. I also don't believe that in my case waiting for logitech to reduce the ffb slop in the next driver version is gonna fix this problem. It will help, but I think what all the ffb-trim users need is a deadzone and the beginning of a positive input curve on the "new" joystick center after trimming.

 

Wags, can you tell us if moving the center to the new trim position would be possible, and if so, would ED implement it for a future patch?

[Lava]

Mikey, I might be misunderstanding you, but I think the center does 'move up' with the trimmed position. If you trim and then pull back slightly from the trimmed position, your nose should indeed rise.

[-Bazong-]

For those with a MS FFB stick, please provide as much detail as you can about what you are seeing and your setup. We are having great difficulty reproducing FFB problems with the MS FFB.

 

Thanks

 

I use an ms FFB 2 as well (grey trigger, green light) and it works very well. Only problem is (as others mentioned) that you can't set curves on the axis since the curves won't apply to where it centers when you trim..

[manne]

I'm also looking into getting a FFB stick. But there's one thing I don't understand, which probably is very simple.

 

FFB sticks don't automatically recenter right? They stay in the position in which you leave them. From what I understand that's a good thing, because if you trim you can still visually see how your stick is pointed. But the thing I don't understand is, when I would fly to the left (stick to the left) and release the trim button, I need to recenter the stick. So the stick is in the center again, which you don't want right?! And if it stays to the left, after trimming, it doubles to effect which you also don't want.

 

Or am I missing the point here? It's so simple, but somehow so hard :(

[mikey]

Mikey, I might be misunderstanding you, but I think the center does 'move up' with the trimmed position. If you trim and then pull back slightly from the trimmed position, your nose should indeed rise.

 

It's not that center I'm talking about lava. I want what the OS/game sees as the "physical joystick center" to move up. That "physical joytick center" is where the start of the deadzone will start for example.

 

 

@manne, you don't need to recenter your joystick if ffb mode is enabled. You can press the trim button as many times as you want in a new position, it wont double the value or something.

Edited April 9, 2010 by mikey

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Hello Mikey. I use the MS FF2 joystick and the physical center does indeed set itself to where you trim. To clarify if I push forward and hit the trim button the new physical center is forward now and not the true center of the joystick. I thought all force feedback sticks worked in this way, apparantly I was wrong. I dont see how people could fly with force feedback otherwise........... I guess its what your used to. How in the world can someone fly with FFB when they physical center doesnt change from true center?

[mikey]

So your deadzone and curve settings are transferred to that new position too?

 

 

 

edit: this is what I want with my G940, hopefully a picture will clear it up:

Edited April 9, 2010 by mikey

[Made.In.China.00]

So you mean it would be ideal if the deadzone follows the stick to its newly trimmed position instead of staying at the stick's initial position, is that right?

 

I've never used a FFB stick before and look forward to getting one. But isn't this ideal kind of obvious? Why those people who design and write software for those sticks never got it?

Trimming is impossible with FF on. I turn it off in producer.cfg.

[average_pilot]

@mikey, I think that you were missing the word "deadzone" in your posts leading to some confussion, but all this confussion has been worth because that picture you have posted clears it up sharply.

That's what I was also trying to explain with my pity english grammar, I should have think of using a picture myself.

 

@manne, the joystick recenters itselfs, but the center can be changed because it's driven by electrical motors and not springs.

When FFB is enabled, the relation between the range of motion of the joystick and the range of motion of the aircraft's virtual stick doesn't change when you trim. That's why you don't have to move the joystick back to the physical center like happens with a mechanical spring driven joystick.

 

@Made.In.China.00, I think that, like most customers, the manufacturers consider their own FFB joysticks as joysticks with vibrations. Ideally, developers (like ED) shouldn't be worrying about details like this, it's should be on the driver/device software side.