moving and engaging at the same time

[manne]

I've been playing Black Shark for a while now, but till now it basically comes down to moving to target area, get in a nice steady hover and blow them up from a safe distance.

 

But as soon as things get "hot" and I don't have time to go into a nice hover first, I never manage to engage enemies. For in example the seperate patrol mission (i think that's what it's called), you need to fly through a valley and do a regular patrol flight. I tried that mission 5+ times now, flying slowly, from vantage point to vantage point, but as soon as the convoy turns around the bent and I'm still trying to aim at the moving targets I'm shot from the air. If though I know I can expect them!

 

Is it even possible to multi-task with the Black Shark? Like doing evasive manouvres while locking and shooting targets? What should be the procedure in the patrol mission mentioned above? Should I, as soon as I see the enemy patrol coming up, break contact and retreat somewhere where I can lay an ambush? How is this done in real life? Should I even try to multitask (manouvering/engaging at the same time)?

[EtherealN]

Do evasive maneuvers while locking and shooting targets? I guess it's possible, but it is also stupid. :P

 

What you should do is reconnoiter from a distance to make sure you have a good understanding of the situation, and then decide whether a hovering stand-off attack is preferable or if you should lay down the law with a high-speed pass. If the latter, plan your route beforehand to ensure that you will have had time to line up before you come into engagement range - don't try to aim your rockets if you are 600 meters from the target and they're shooting at you, you've already lost that engagement at that point. In fact, a key thing is to never overfly the target area if this can be avoided - even if you think you killed everything, there might still be something there that can kill you.

 

Instead, line up a good distance from the target and get your speed while terrain masking, then line up in a good direction (for example to place a convoy in a line ahead of you, making a rocket or strafing run more effective than if you have to yaw around), release your weapons when stable and within range, then break off. And do deploy flares while on the attack run - your flares aren't just there to defeat launched missiles, they're best used to cause missiles to never get a lock in the first place. :)

 

But the key thing is: don't ever be both defensive and offensive at the same time. Jack of All Trades is master of none, and it'll only cause you to both die and not kill anything. If the situation develops in such a way that you have to go defensive, break off, get into hiding, and try something else.

[Griffin]

But as soon as things get "hot" and I don't have time to go into a nice hover first, I never manage to engage enemies. For in example the seperate patrol mission (i think that's what it's called), you need to fly through a valley and do a regular patrol flight. I tried that mission 5+ times now, flying slowly, from vantage point to vantage point, but as soon as the convoy turns around the bent and I'm still trying to aim at the moving targets I'm shot from the air. If though I know I can expect them!

You are facing a heavily armed convoy with MBT's, APC's with missiles, AA gun platforms and MANPAD's. If they can shoot at you, you are totally in the wrong place. It's understandable, considering the profile of the mission, that you might surprisingly fly right into them from behind a corner but you should get the hell out of there ASAP as you can't outgun them.

The idea of patrolling/scouting is to detect enemy movement and then bugger off to report contacts and plan the attack.

Is it even possible to multi-task with the Black Shark?

It is possible to move and shoot at the same time and slew the Shkval from target to target. With missiles you should of course start from maximum range. With cannon it's also possible against soft unarmed convoys for example but if they are packing anything bigger than PKM, you should keep further away. If you are flying towards the enemy, always have an open escape route planned. Never overfly your target. This is especially difficult in the mission you are talking about in the tight valleys. Even if the guns don't get you, you still might catch shrapnel from an exploding vehicle.

A good HOTAS system with a ministick like on CH Pro Throttle helps alot as you can slew the Shkval much faster and easier.

 

It's possible to multitask in the Shark but of course it takes alot of practise and quick fingers. You will learn it with experience. No wonder all the rest of worlds attack helicopters are twin seaters, eh?

Like doing evasive manouvres while locking and shooting targets?

If you are doing evasive manouvers, your nose should be pointing anywhere except on the thing that is shooting at you.

Should I, as soon as I see the enemy patrol coming up, break contact and retreat somewhere where I can lay an ambush?

That's pretty much the best option. The mountain area is perfect for ambushes anyway. The best ability of Black Shark is to attack from stand-off distances. If all is clear, you can move closer. Note that even if you take out all of the armored vehicles in the convoy, the harmless looking trucks might not be a piece of cake. They are in fact the most dangerous vehicles from the convoy in this mission. They drop off a MANPAD team when you move close enough. You are also packing some heavy rockets that you can use smartly to block their advance.

 

I hope this helps and I didn't give away too many spoilers from the mission. :)

Edited April 6, 2010 by Griffin

[Sulman]

I've been playing Black Shark for a while now, but till now it basically comes down to moving to target area, get in a nice steady hover and blow them up from a safe distance.

 

When I came to BS from LockonFC, the first thing I had to learn and practice was patience. BS missions take, far, far longer for me to accomplish. Jets, even the slowest in FC (A-10 and SU25) have agility and speed to get out of most problems. You can aggressively overcontrol and turn'n'burn away from many ground threats. This just doesn't work well in the KA52. It is difficult to maneuver aggressively without risking control departure, and you'll usually rely on flares anyway, so you have to play constantly to the helo's strengths.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with your approach; as others have said, you're basically doing two different thing: Shooting, or trying not to be shot.

 

I've managed (while flying slowly, correctly trimmed at about 130kph) to catch targets 'on the go' before but I'm not comfortable with this - it is a worryingly high workload and if anything goes wrong - like incoming sams - you can get into trouble fast.

 

'Gauntlet' is a mission I play loads. It's pretty hard (I usually die at some point), takes a long time, but has a large mix of threats. You need to be patient because the mission objective require you to pass within 500m of the threat zone centres. That means alot of edging forward and LOTS of Shkval scanning.

 

Typically, I move carefully (no more than about 150-180kph) at treetop height, to battlepoints (BP's) I've already thought about on the Abris. These are locations that in theory allow observation and standoff. Hills and towns are good choices*. Hills are best. Treelines in theory would be super, but the AI sees and shoots through these, which is a shame but something we have to live with - if they occluded threats it would make the KA52 pilots life much, much easier. Once I reach the BP and hover, I go through a series of simple drills. The first is a popup observation drill. I move up gently and scan 3-4 k's ahead; essentially I'm watching mainly for threats. Behind a hill this is very simple, and SAM avoidance is as easy as gently lowering collective.

 

If all is clear, I go to 'standoff observation' (my term). This is much higher, and riskier. Dependant on how high the hill is, it may only be a matter of cresting it. This is a slow rise to 90-100 metres. This gives you about 7-8km coverage via the Shkval, and if nothing has engaged you during the ascent, chances are nothing will. This will give you superb coverage of the proposed target area, and you'll usually be able to engage without harm.

 

In the event of incoming threats, I have a 'descending 180 with flares' drill. I bang the nose down about 15 degrees, trim on about 20 degrees bank dispensing flares and accelerating to avoid ring-state problems. Trim out back to treetop level, turn around 180, slow down, back off, and try a different approach.

 

These are just my methods. I'm not that good at maneuvering the helicopter aggressively, so I break the movements down to simple drills I can get right under pressure. Of course, radar sams make the above very difficult, and can 'pin' you, bu that's a different story.

 

The AI is actually a great maneuver fighter in the Helos, they twist and turn like Shakira, but note that it doesn't actually help them. I think there's a lesson there.

 

 

 

*Office building and tall industrial buildings are great for threat osbtruction. If you know where a sam is, place an office block between you and it. It's not as hard as it sounds. Crawl up to the building and slowly popup and engage. The BS world is full of cool little things you can hide behind. Even static trains.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Sulman

[manne]

Very interesting to read how others approach certain situations. I think my mind has been wandering away from how to approach situations with the Black Shark, so I'll need to focus on either attacking while dictating the momentum myself or retreating to try a different approach. Sometimes I'm still tempted to do something in between, which indeed doesn't work. I already have a lot of patience while in the Black Shark, but I might need some more!

 

I can really work with the replies so far :)

[BluesmanSF]

Hello there! That mission, if I'm correct about which one you meant, was particurarly tricky for the first time, it's the only mission I've yet to died in my Deployment campaing, and dang I'm proud of it, for the newbie I am in helo-sims :smartass:

 

Anyways, how I did it, AFTER gotten killed by the RPG-dude or whatever manpad he was, who actually appears in to a quite visual area, after triggered by the column you're supposed to escort, - was to patrol the area in front of the column, but as I knew where the ambush was to be taken (a bit of a cheat yes) I layed a he** of a fire in the forest at the ambush-point with HE-rounds (the infantry COULD be seen through the forest, difficult to find though) and just before the column would drive to the battlepoint, I took cover just a click SouthEast of BP, where there's this pointy hill, and from behind it I could observe and single out the RPG guy and completely overkill him with a belt of very satisfying HE rounds :music_whistling:. Áfter that, there was no real threat and I practised some unguided rocket-runs on the forested area where the column was fired upon.

 

Dang it can be explained in a complex way, I guess it's just me.. =P

 

6S_Blues

[Booger]

I'm far from a guru, but my experience...

 

Distance is your greatest ally. I can't remember how many times I've grown impatient and tried getting off another shot or two, knowing I was too close.

 

A lesson learned the hard way.

 

Second, the calls on hills or buildings are spot on.

 

Lastly, don't forget that in certain situations, having a bit of altitude isn't a bad thing either. Some missions have a bit of hills that block line of sight of convoys or other stationary targets. I've found that this is the best tactic to use while starting to become familiar with the different controls. Once you fine-tune your HOTAS config where selection/employment is natural, then get fancy. Again, that's just my opinion of what worked for me.

 

Just maintain situational awareness and have your exit strategy in the back of your mind.

[manne]

Hello there! That mission, if I'm correct about which one you meant, was particurarly tricky for the first time, it's the only mission I've yet to died in my Deployment campaing, and dang I'm proud of it, for the newbie I am in helo-sims :smartass:

 

I was talking about a different one, but it doesn't really matter. In the mission I meant (which I think is way harder than any of the deployment campaign missions) you have to do a routine patrol flight in a valley and at some point you come against a 15+ vehicle enemey patrol.

 

 

tried getting off another shot or two, knowing I was too close.

Yeah, that's really something to keep in mind. It simply doesn't work to shoot one or two extra times while you are actually in too much danger. Sometimes it's just very tempting, but eventually you'll wind up dead or at least in way too much danger. Sometimes it's hard to put that rule in practice...

[Feuerfalke]

It depends a bit on what scenario you play. That was subject of lengthy discussions for months here.

 

If you're on a modern scenario, like bombing insurgence forces back into the stone-age, you can use the HMS (Helmet Mounted Sight) to slew the gun or search for targets, while maintaining altitude.

 

In a more WW3-like scenario with capable tanks, Anti-Air or even enemy CAP, this strategy is inadvisable in general, except if you are testing the Ka-50s damage modeling.

[Booger]

Yeah, that's really something to keep in mind. It simply doesn't work to shoot one or two extra times while you are actually in too much danger. Sometimes it's just very tempting, but eventually you'll wind up dead or at least in way too much danger. Sometimes it's hard to put that rule in practice...

 

I know right? It's almost a careless frenzy to succeed.

 

Anyway, yeah like I said, I learned that lesson the hard way. I mean I love flying the sim every second it's running, but restarting kind of sucked.

 

The price of not thinking smartly.

[Conure]

Sorry to bump this one up guys but is there a way to report enemies to convoys in missions? at the moment I find them, and have to sit in silence!

[thinkr]

you guys realize you don't have to restart everytime. All you do is when you get to a point in the mission you want to save and restart from. Just hit Escape and Save the Mission TRACK.

 

Then Click Replay in the Menu and Fast forward the Time till you get to the point you want to continue from, Hit escape during replay and click CONTROL button

on the menu

 

 

Time Accelerate: LeftControl + "Z"

Time Slower: LeftAlt + "Z"

Time NORMAL: LeftShift + "Z"

[StarHopper]

Move in at around at least 250 km/hr. Switch to manual sighting and rockets / guns. As you get the sight over your target, hit designate to fire the laser. The sight will adjust for THAT range. Fire. Get out fast. Make sure the dial for calculating rocket path is set for the right rockets. Its on the back - right panel. I think its set for S-8 as default.

 

But yeah, I get the feeling heli's were meant for standing way off and just firing guided missles. Everything else is kinda suicide run. Even a .50 with a lucky hit can bring your copter down.

[WildBillKelsoe]

here is a track playing a very distant mission, and ending it on the spot. The FARP at the AO is occupied by insurgents, and note how I engaged the ground forces. I got damaged in the doppler from AK47 fire, but cleared the FARP, landed and got the job done. At first, my wingman sent to recce gradual distances in the direction of FEBA, and I used ABRIS to draw a general attack direction.

 

Also note how I'm outside the AO and detection, while having IR SAMs launched at me, I sustained least damage as opposed to my unfortunate wingman.

 

Point is, if you're engaging soft targets (bmp, infantry, AAA holes, etc...), you're bless is the cannon. Most of the payload was exhausted but 4 Vikhrs reserved for armoured targets, and the rest, well, watch the track. Its very long, but I dont advise using the fast forward or you'll damage the track.

 

 

Track

 

The key to surviving the threats is constant looks outside the cockpit. Look for gun bullets flying in the air, gun sparks from ground forces, threads of missiles from manpads/AA units...

 

And if you get down and dirty, always have the cannon ready...

[Puddlemonkey]

When I first started this mission, I used the same tactics that I normally do, staying low to the ground and trying to blend in with the scenery. This meant being in the valleys and I got shot down every time.

 

Now, I fly it high. I keep my route to the ridge of the mountains, flying 30 feet or so above it. This gives me two advantages. I can see for miles and spot the convoy before they do me. Also, if I do get shot at, I can break in the opposite direction and duck behind the mountain. I can then fly along the other side of the ridge until I am brave enough to pop up and take another look from another location.

 

I have also tried tucking into the crevaces to attempt an ambush as the convoy passes but have been shot every time so far!

[Bucic]

What you should do is reconnoiter from a distance(...)

What a word! :D

 

you guys realize you don't have to restart everytime. All you do is when you get to a point in the mission you want to save and restart from. Just hit Escape and Save the Mission TRACK.

 

Then Click Replay in the Menu and Fast forward the Time till you get to the point you want to continue from, Hit escape during replay and click CONTROL button

on the menu

 

 

Time Accelerate: LeftControl + "Z"

Time Slower: LeftAlt + "Z"

Time NORMAL: LeftShift + "Z"

I've never used that! Thanks! :doh:

 

To original poster:

Check this out Youtube Dvdlpt's channel - raw uncut campaign gameplay footages

Also try to acquire a track in which one of the known aces does his magic. You can record a multiplayer track. The TacView ACMI tool screenshot is vital.