Great MP ! 104th Server

[Smoky]

 

Still I say to anyone who usually flys in an air quake style to try flying in a more realistic manner it's infinatly more enjoyable. And if you start flying as part of a 2/4 ship flight employing proper tactics and procedures such as engaged/supporting fighter contracts and proper formations, not only is it more fun, but you'll also be a damn site more effective than fling around solo spamming missiles.

 

While I completely agree, I'll settle for folks who simply fly correctly. Or go do taxi-way takeoffs, 20-foot tarmac flybys, and chatting about their cat's latest poop on their own arcade server.

 

Or just go play Pacific Fighters.

[Panzertard]

I must admit, I had not gotten close without aircover - GG & Ethereal provided my with constant updates and took care of the threats the whole night. But thats how we play - dedicated roles.

Both tried to keep the Awacs alive and provide me with intel and protection on my journey up north-west.

 

Quite fun ;)

[GGTharos]

It helps that you made yourself not exactly easy to track ;)

 

Also I think Panzer must be one of the few Shark pilots who look out of their cockpit. 'Hey GG, is that you at 3 high?'. Hehe.

[Boulund]

:) maybe shark-flyers are too occupied inside their cockpits?

[GGTharos]

They shouldn't be ... I mean you guys have great navigation and autopilot functionality, and you just simply should have a lot of hands-off time during transit. :)

[104th_Crunch]

What I mean by dedicated roles is that rather than just having 10 slots for fighters and 10 more for attack jets/choppers, there should be a few 4 ship TARCAP/Escort/BARCAP/Sweep or variations thereof, and the same for the A/G aircraft. And of course, that requires those flying the mission to read the brief and actually carry out their mission as fragged.

 

That what I mean as well, but just because those roles/tasks are not listed in the slots does not mean you can not actually perform those roles. Again, all it takes is team play, but if you have no squad, that will be hard to come by.

[Eddie]

For you. I think it is VERY obvious that this is not true for everyone out there.

Personally I'll either fly a 2-ship fighter sweep or HVAA defense, and I've learned to care less about what others do.

The only trouble in such cases is usually the lack of a relief flight.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying everyone should be forced fly with full checklists, and comply with ATC procedures etc. Obviously not everyone enjoys flying in the same way. But surely the point of flying in a large server is that you get to work with other team members to complete your fragged objective. It seems that many people don't even bother reading the mission brief before jumping into the pit, and just fly around the sky at random flinging missiles into the sky. Just seems odd to me that some people would go for even a lo-fi such such as lomac to fly around in a way more suited to hawx etc, that's all.

 

I think parhaps I've been spoilt by 10 years of hardcore co-op sim flying in Falcon, and my expectations are sadly all too high. Although as I said above I live in hope that when we can start flying the still to come DCS modules together things will change. But until then I'll keep flying on the 104th and other severs in the hope of the occasional bit of proper teamwork over TS/Vent. Anyone for a brevity quiz?:megalol::pilotfly:

[GGTharos]

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying everyone should be forced fly with full checklists, and comply with ATC procedures etc.

 

Why not - I would ;)

 

Obviously not everyone enjoys flying in the same way. But surely the point of flying in a large server is that you get to work with other team members to complete your fragged objective.

 

I think experience demonstrates that it is about getting in there and shooting down as many opposing aircraft as you can :)

 

It seems that many people don't even bother reading the mission brief before jumping into the pit, and just fly around the sky at random flinging missiles into the sky. Just seems odd to me that some people would go for even a lo-fi such such as lomac to fly around in a way more suited to hawx etc, that's all.

 

Yep, well, the really amusing thing is that people complain about fairness and demand a realistic sim at the same time, too ... but anyway.

Most people aren't doing anything random; in fact they're quite predictable (I probably am, too - I'm sure when someone sees a blip on the scope doing this or that they say 'oh, that's GG').

I digress. What I mean is - fighter guys will go and find and blow up planes. Usually this is done in a particular manner depending on the player's style ... some will hunt around in the valleys, and use AWACS to help them ambush you, others will fly high and try to detect everything and everyone.

Point being; it isn't random, but it is disorganized.

 

I think parhaps I've been spoilt by 10 years of hardcore co-op sim flying in Falcon, and my expectations are sadly all too high. Although as I said above I live in hope that when we can start flying the still to come DCS modules together things will change. But until then I'll keep flying on the 104th and other severs in the hope of the occasional bit of proper teamwork over TS/Vent. Anyone for a brevity quiz?:megalol::pilotfly:

 

Yes, your expectations are both too high, and incorrect for force on force as opposed to coop. Of course, LO/FC also doesn't exactly encourage a more team-based style of play, and so on and so forth ... most missions have flight distances that for me personally are attrociously short; seriously, fighters within 20nm of my airbase? Where the heck is my PATRIOT? Why have they gotten through the 2-3 layer PATRIOT defense belts? (That was a rethorical question).

 

This style of map encourages people to lonewolf it. But what happens when you make a map with longer distances? You lose players. So I guess your expectations are completely wrong for non-organized events.

[nemises]

You've hit the nail on the head there.... we "simply" need more organised invite / signup events.

Damn shame that there is a HUGE amount of work involved in doing one ... would be nice to maybe run an event 2 or 3 times in a row (for those who cannot make the first, or didn't make it in etc..), rather than spacing 1 event out over a quarter.

 

...so many possibilties with the new ME for some incredible online experiences (live aFAC's, events triggered by admins...etc...)

[104th_Crunch]

Good point GG. Events! 159th Redflag is coming next month and offers all Eddie is looking for and more!

 

edit: Yes Nemesis. The 51st had the excellent Crimean Incident running with a mission every 2 weeks. It was more than enough to keep squads busy. I am sure sooner or later it will be back in a new incarnation.

 

http://www.51st.org/campaign/

Edited May 26, 2010 by Crunch

[Eddie]

I think you've got it spot on GG. The only thing I'd say is that isn't a force on force just 2 teams playing co-op?! That's how it's always been in my experience, until now. I know, expecting too much again.

 

Hopefully work permitting, once A-10C appears I'll be able to/have the desire to dedicate as much time and effort to in as I used to with Falcon. And not only finish a couple of projects for the community I have in various stages of completion, but also turn out some more realistic multi-player missions. And perhaps, if my plan comes together, maybe even be in a position to join a squad/wing once again.

 

Totally agree with you on the transit distances though, even for the KA-50 they are far too short in current missions, and for fixed wing I'd expect to be flying around 80-100nm before even having to fence in. But as you said, such mission probably wouldn't attract enough players to make them viable on public servers. Or would they?

[GGTharos]

No, force on force is not co-op. Not EVERYONE is on the same team, they are opposed. At least AFAIK, CO-OP always meant all players on the same side.

 

As far as A-10C goes, I figure you'll have a leg up having flown Falcon.

 

For realistic missions, I'll note that Ka-50 servers haven't exactly been offering such, at least AFAIK, despite the sophistication of the sim and other factors, typical missions are pretty much get-there-and-shoot-stuff type deals. The players are not the only ones to blame; right now mission diversity is not enough for MP. But again; a mission is what you make of it.

 

Where distances are concerned, I have hosted maps where distances were about 80-100nm to the FLOT (so twice that between airbases) and I was already getting comments like 'what sort of retard made this map? It takes too long to find anyone' ... you should have seen what I got for the one where range to FLOT was 200nm ;)

Squads, on the other hand seemed to love it; one of the ones who tried it were the 51st (formely 504 at that time I think?) and I know Pilotasso was there ... we had a surprising BFM engagement, we had expected most of engagements to be fought high and BVR. Pilotasso won the BFM but before he could shoot me down, my wingman's slammer did bad things for this TWR and ROT ;) (Well fought Pilotasso).

 

Another thing that these distances eliminated were elaborate SAM emplacements to protect airbases, so you could concentrate on putting more units on the FLOT. I had set up several targets that could be attacked in a missionized fashion by organized strikers and fighters; there was none of this 'you get to fly in your own corner', it was more like 'let's strike this, but send some people here to feint and fake out the other side's fighters'.

 

This had implications for patrol routes, the type of aircraft you used for patrol (MiG-29S would need 3 tanks for endurance, thus reducing them to 4 missiles apiece. They needed to work with the flankers to make things work well).

 

There was no 'shoot and turn and run' ... you didn't have the fuel for that sort of joust - if you stayed in afterburner, you were ceding air superiority.

 

It didn't last long, sadly, we had to give up our server.

Edited May 26, 2010 by GGTharos

[Eddie]

No, force on force is not co-op. Not EVERYONE is on the same team, they are opposed. At least AFAIK, CO-OP always meant all players on the same side.

 

You misunderstand me. Yes there are 2 opposing teams, but each team in itself is flying co-op. The only difference between traditional co-op and force on force is that with the latter, your enemy (or some of them at least) are human, rather than AI. The way you fly within your flights/packages is the same. Co-op to me means simply co-operative play with other players, rather than a lone wolf free-for-all.

[GGTharos]

I believe the correct term for what you are describing is PvP (player vs. player), not Co-op. Co-op at least in my experience has never, ever meant anything but all players on same side. But that's just me.

 

You misunderstand me. Yes there are 2 opposing teams, but each team in itself is flying co-op. The only difference between traditional co-op and force on force is that with the latter, your enemy (or some of them at least) are human, rather than AI. The way you fly within your flights/packages is the same. Co-op to me means simply co-operative play with other players, rather than a lone wolf free-for-all.

[Aliboy]

The most fun time to play on the 104th Server is when there is 3-4 guys from any squadron in the game Its nice to see how they use tactics to try to kill you and I do always use 104th TS while flying you meet all sorts of Fun&Serious people there..Sometimes the brevity used may not be the best but "Check 350 50k high " or "dude watch out for TWS shot" works fine.

[Eddie]

I believe the correct term for what you are describing is PvP (player vs. player), not Co-op. Co-op at least in my experience has never, ever meant anything but all players on same side. But that's just me.

 

You misunderstand what I'm trying to convey again mate, I agree co-op is exactly what you state above. But the way you as a pilot operate is (or should be) exactly the same regardless of if you're flying a mission where your flight/package is operating against just AI (co-op) or against humans/a mix of AI & humans (force on force/PvP). So for you as a pilot a force on force is just 2 groups of people flying co-op, it just so happens that they are flying in the same server on opposing sides. The way they operate within their individual flights and packages does not change.

[Boberro]

They shouldn't be ... I mean you guys have great navigation and autopilot functionality, and you just simply should have a lot of hands-off time during transit. :)

 

Yeah great navigation with max 6 waypoints, sure :)

 

Good point GG. Events! 159th Redflag is coming next month and offers all Eddie is looking for and more!

 

edit: Yes Nemesis. The 51st had the excellent Crimean Incident running with a mission every 2 weeks. It was more than enough to keep squads busy. I am sure sooner or later it will be back in a new incarnation.

 

http://www.51st.org/campaign/

 

Thanks for information, I like events and I nicely remind 169th and 104th in the past, where I participated.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Boberro

[Eddie]

Ah i dunno, i guess IRL pilots get upset too when someone blows up their "dippy" :D

 

 

Now that's just really bad mission planning :megalol:

 

 

Yeah great navigation with max 6 waypoints, sure :)

 

Yeah, at one time. It's easy enough to edit them as you go if you need more, and the ABRIS can have as many as you like. Pretty much every time I've flown online I've ended up amending/adding way points in the PVI, to allow for alternate airfields, and additional target areas etc.

 

It is a pity mission builders don't assign dedicated alternate airfields as part of the mission brief/flight plan though, I'm sure this would be equally useful for those flying FC2 in case a runway gets fouled up or attacked. It's a shame the mission editor doesn't support things like IPs/divert fields/tanker stations etc as well (or better) than Falcon. Hopefully it'll come in time.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Eddie
added more stuff

[GGTharos]

I guess you could define it that way but I think you'd be fairly unique in that ... :)

[GGTharos]

You need more? ;) Write'em down and input them on the fly. Easy as pie!

 

Yeah great navigation with max 6 waypoints, sure :)

[Eddie]

....... but I think you'd be fairly unique in that ... :)

 

I'm always unique. Who wants to be "normal", it's boring. :thumbup:

[Grimes]

You misunderstand what I'm trying to convey again mate, I agree co-op is exactly what you state above. But the way you as a pilot operate is (or should be) exactly the same regardless of if you're flying a mission where your flight/package is operating against just AI (co-op) or against humans/a mix of AI & humans (force on force/PvP). So for you as a pilot a force on force is just 2 groups of people flying co-op, it just so happens that they are flying in the same server on opposing sides. The way they operate within their individual flights and packages does not change.

 

I believe the word you and GG are looking for is "teamwork"

[Frederf]

Lol Eddie cracks me up. Wut? No it's co-op not PvP... can't you see people working together? You're not allowed to cooperate in PvP! It's supposed to a be a braindead individual effort!

 

If you have 10 people working in concert, planning, taking their time, using realistic procedures, valuing survival over kill count against 10 others doing the same thing... that's PvP; in fact that's good PvP. Just because most PvP is ADHD airquake doesn't mean that's what PvP is.

 

The gray area between PvP and co-op comes in where you have one clearly "human" side and 1-2 humans on the AI side trying to augment them, usually by being the commander of AI forces.

[Panzertard]

Allright, we're getting a bit offtopic.

Let's get back on track with the 104th server. ;)

[Eddie]

Lol Eddie cracks me up. Wut? No it's co-op not PvP... can't you see people working together? You're not allowed to cooperate in PvP! It's supposed to a be a braindead individual effort!

 

If you have 10 people working in concert, planning, taking their time, using realistic procedures, valuing survival over kill count against 10 others doing the same thing... that's PvP; in fact that's good PvP. Just because most PvP is ADHD airquake doesn't mean that's what PvP is.

 

The gray area between PvP and co-op comes in where you have one clearly "human" side and 1-2 humans on the AI side trying to augment them, usually by being the commander of AI forces.

 

Miss the whole point and meaning of my post did you. ;). You have, albeit in a different way said exactly the same as me. It would seem the term co-op has some fixed meaning around here beyond just being an abbreviation for the word cooperation.

 

 

Anyway moving weirdly on to topic, I actually have a question for the 104th. Madness I know. How long do you guys run any given mission on the server? Is it just a case of until you get bored, however long it takes to make a new one or a fixed duration?