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Engine restart problems!

MaverickF22

By MaverickF22
in DCS: Ka-50 Black Shark

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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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K, so now from at least one minute..., for as far as i could see it's enough..., we need to wait 3 min 20 seconds after the START VLV light goes off, before shutting down the started engine, for a new restart...!

 

If that starter turbine keeps spinning "so well greased" after the VLV light goes off and the sim may not be too realistically modeled in this area..., there should be a way or another to gather info about the real behaviour of that turbine, so it could be implemented in the simulator!;)

 

Thanks for all your efforts guys!

 

Good luck Beta Team!

 

Cheers,

Mav.

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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On an engineering (not programming) related question: Why would the starter take so long to slow down compared to the compressor? The N-GG gauge is pretty quick to hit 0% after engine shutdown. I haven't timed it but isn't it <30 seconds? Curious.

 

Yeap, it should normally slow down almost as fast as a compressor if there's no airflow to keep that turbine spinning, and it would normally spool down faster!:)

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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RvETito

RvETito

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If that starter turbine keeps spinning "so well greased" after the VLV light goes off and the sim may not be too realistically modeled in this area..., there should be a way or another to gather info about the real behaviour of that turbine, so it could be implemented in the simulator!;)

 

Well, you can extrapolate if you wish. There's nothing given in the manuals about how long it takes for the starter to stop. From RL experience I know it spools down much faster than the compressor but hey, I'm not a programmer so I can't say how that would be implemented in BS. It's an issue that devs are well aware of but there have been some technical difficulties. IMO it doesn't affect gameplay at all.

 

Tell me something - why would you need to shut down an engine right after it stabilizes at idle then to restart it all over?

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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Tell me something - why would you need to shut down an engine right after it stabilizes at idle then to restart it all over?

 

You're right..., but if i really wish to do that just for a play around or just by mistake, it should work..., and it should do it realistically!;)

 

About that 3 min 20 sec(200 seconds) time, that you've said we have to wait in order for the starter turbine to spool down since when the START VLV turns off..., should't it be the same even if we shut down that started engine before, or after one minute has passed since VLV turns off...?

 

Because i've made a test and shut down the engine before one minute have passed since the START VLV light went off and even after it spooled up to idle rpm, i counted about 35-40 seconds and shut it down..., after that i waited for more than 5 minutes in order to make sure that damn starter turbine spooled down to a halt, then tried a restart..., but the same UGLY thing came back again:joystick:, the EGT started rising rapidly to 165 degrees again and the N1/2 RPM reamined at 0%:joystick::joystick:!

 

This bug seems to get smarter everyday!

 

Sorry about this, i don't know too much about programming eighter, but there must be someone who knows exactly how this works and what should be done...! We can only wait for the time to settle all these i guess!;)

 

I'd just love that this simulator would be as best and realistic as possible, and i know that there is nothing perfect in this world, though that's why every piece of these initially insignificant problems that may alter it in the future, need to be fixed from way behind!:)

 

Thank you and i wish everyone a happy day and a good work!

 

Cheers,

Mav.

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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sobek

sobek

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Because i've made a test and shut down the engine before one minute have passed since the START VLV light went off and even after it spooled up to idle rpm, i counted about 35-40 seconds and shut it down..., after that i waited for more than 5 minutes in order to make sure that damn starter turbine spooled down to a halt, then tried a restart..., but the same UGLY thing came back again:joystick:, the EGT started rising rapidly to 165 degrees again and the N1/2 RPM reamined at 0%:joystick::joystick:!

 

Did you do this in the very same chopper or did you try it with a new one every time?

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Frederf

Frederf

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Obviously the same one, that's the point. AirTito said that 200 seconds after starter disengages should be enough time for the starter to spin down for another start.

 

Maverick waited at least 330 seconds after the starter disengaged and got the same behavior.

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RvETito

RvETito

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Here's what I did - I shut down the engine exactly 100 sec after the START VLV light goes off, then I wait 100 sec more and initiate another start. It starts normally. I repeated the same sequence few times and the engine always spools up.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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AlphaOneSix

AlphaOneSix

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I did a similar test, where I waited 100 seconds after the START VLV light extinguishes, but I did not wait another 100 seconds after that, I only waited until Ngg was 0, then immediately restarted and it worked fine.

 

Interestingly, this problem does not appear when performing cranks or false starts, only during normal starts.

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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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Interestingly, this problem does not appear when performing cranks or false starts, only during normal starts.

 

Well that's something else to add about this thing...!

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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Here's what i do:

 

I turn on the engine, after the START VLV goes off i count 65 seconds, afterwards i shut it down and when the N1 shows 10% RPM i press the start button and the engine starts up again!

 

I don't know what did you really mean about that 3 min 20 seconds waiting time for the STARTER turbine to spool down, because you can wait as much as you prefer if you shut the engine down before 65 seconds pass since the START VLV light goes off and it never starts again, thus you can restart it immediately if you wait for at least 65 seconds before shutting down!

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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The above comments suggest that the issue is entirely the time interval between starting the engine and shutting it down. A very rapid start/stop followed by a week of waiting doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

Roger..., you've got that right!

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Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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  • 2 months later...
Ramstein

Ramstein

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I ran out of fuel upon touchdown... I got it refueled. at the farp at which I landed at the exact time it ran out of fuel..

 

I tried to restart the engine both auto and by manual procedure (after the auto procedure failed..) the engines would nto start.. although I could restart the APU.

 

I really think there is a bug..

 

:joystick:

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Ramstein

Ramstein

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THis sounds like a completely different issue from the one described in this thread. Did you happen to keep the track file?

 

 

as a matter of fact, it did save the file as a trk file..

but it's really large..

19 mb

 

so it's a pain to post..

 

-----

I forgot it automatically saves the trk files.. I kepth thinking after the mission, one had to purposely save it as a trk file..


Edited by Ramstein

ASUS Strix Z790-H, i9-13900, WartHog HOTAS and MFG Crosswind

G.Skill 64 GB Ram, 2TB SSD

EVGA Nvidia RTX 2080-TI

55" Sony OLED TV, Oculus VR

 

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RvETito

RvETito

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That's natural to happen in case of flame out - air gets in to the fuel control unit. I'd do a false start - crank with open cut-off valve (given the boost pumps are running and the shutoff valve is open) to bleed the engine fuel system. Then do a crank (close the cut-off valve only) to vent the engine from the excessive fuel. You should be able to start normaly afterwards.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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  • 2 years later...
MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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This damn bug still persists!

 

OK, so here we go again! Sadly!:music_whistling:

 

Even if BS2 offers huge enhances over BS1..., the problem for which i've started this thread 2 years ago, seems to persist!:joystick::joystick:

 

Why the hell didn't they fix this?

 

If you start an engine, YOU SHOULDN'T for whatever reason in the world shut it down in less than 1 minute and 5 seconds, don't know if this time interval has changed in some way from BS1, but i've recounted it and you need at least 1:05 minutes at idle if you want to shut it down again!

 

Although this is not a problem that would hold us from flying the Black Shark..., but it suggests that there's something simulated wrong about the engines management and it's not good!

 

Anyway, i hope they will find the cause for why this happens!:book::doh:

 

Here's the video link of this problem in Black Shark 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TDhOqpLYk

 

By then..., i wish all DCS pilots, a happy and thrilling flight!

 

Cheers!


Edited by MaverickF22

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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  • 3 months later...
MaverickF22

MaverickF22

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Another, but this time it's a smaller issue and i hope that at least this, the devs will fix as the engine restart problem hasn't been solved for years now!

 

The HUD brightness button doesn't rotate normally in one direction but in both, as you want to increase or decrease the brightness..., it will rotate in both directions when you totally increase or decrease brightness! It's not a big deal, but it's just another bug!

 

Here's a video with it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6RgtY4kwYU

 

 

Cheers,

Mav!

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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  • 2 months later...
Suchacz

Suchacz

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Posted (edited)
It seems like it's longer than 1 minute. I'm now investigating it deeper but it seems to me that we have a spool down time bug. This is exactly starter driveshaft shear but it shouldn't be happening when the compressor RPM reads zero.

 

I'll bring that to the devs. Thanks for the finding, good catch.

Anything new to this issue? If I turn off the shut off valve right after the start of the engine (before idle), then let it cool down to zero, the engine is unable to start again. After a restart the temperature is rising to 150 Celsius, rpm is still zero.

 

Im using current 1.2.3


Edited by Suchacz

Per aspera ad astra!

Crucial reading about DCS: Black Shark - Black Shark and Coaxial Rotor Aerodynamics, Black Shark and the Trimmer, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2

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