Avoiding fighters

[polomeister]

sounds good Dragon.

 

perhaps also spawn multiple AI Ka 50s? might give the BS pilots a chance whilst the fighters are busy blasting the easier targets

 

just out of interest does anyone know what the ratio of fighters to choppers would be in an east/west scenario? Dragon could then code this multiple into his AI spawns

[Speed]

It is a very complicated trigger logic but in my point of view it is working very good.

 

How did you implement it? I implemented AI spawns that make up for missing human players and conditions based on the number of units alive or dead using a binary counter in my latest mission. Ended up to be not that hard of logic.

 

A simple way to implement AI spawns that make up for non-existant human players is to of course, just individually detect each human slot at a certain time, and spawn single ships for each. However, this ignores any AI aircraft that might still be alive from the previous wave(s), so I just ran a binary counter I constucted out of triggers that would just go thorugh and count all the AI flights in the patrol area and all the human players, then spawn the correct number to fill in the gap if there was a defecit.

 

As far as AI aircraft engaging human helicopter pilots, I've found some unsatisfactory results. They seem to be either "all on" or "all off"- depending on what altitude you give them (I think?) they can either detect a helo flying low to the ground 100% or 0% of the time. So either they will completely pwn the helos or completely leave them alone. Not at all like human fighter pilots. I haven't done EXTENSIVE testing of this, but that was what I found while working on Attack on Krasnodar.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Speed

[vrv]

Give me a C-17 and I'll show you how to avoid fighters. Just land like 12 Ka-50's, mid-air in a moment of pure awesomeness, and we'll hide behind endless amounts of escorts. Or I can just out-BFM them in the Globemaster.

[STP Dragon]

sounds good Dragon.

 

perhaps also spawn multiple AI Ka 50s? might give the BS pilots a chance whilst the fighters are busy blasting the easier targets

Example:

RED Fighter Client joined, No BLUE Fighter Client joined -> BLUE A.I. Fighter spawning

 

RED Ka-50 Client joined, No BLUE Ka-50 Client joined -> BLUE A.I. Choppers spawning.

 

But I don't know how highly skilled you are in fighting enemy choppers.

I added A.I Choppers only with unguided missiles. Their gun is dangerous enough. :D

 

just out of interest does anyone know what the ratio of fighters to choppers would be in an east/west scenario? Dragon could then code this multiple into his AI spawns

 

In my missions I want that every pilot can fly his favourite aircraft.

So in "Hamburger Hill" I added 2x Su-27 and 2x Mig-29 for the RED side.

So I have to add 4x F-15 to the BLUE side.

 

If the Ka-50 captured the enemy FARP, it is possible to join in 10x Ka-50s on one of the coalitions (RED or BLUE)

 

So the ratio in the mission is: 4x Fighter <-> min 6x / max 10x Ka-50.

(2x Su-25T for RED and 2x A-10A for BLUE are also available)

 

 

 

 

 

How did you implement it? I implemented AI spawns that make up for missing human players and conditions based on the number of units alive or dead using a binary counter in my latest mission. Ended up to be not that hard of logic.

A simple way to implement AI spawns that make up for non-existant human players is to of course, just individually detect each human slot at a certain time, and spawn single ships for each. However, this ignores any AI aircraft that might still be alive from the previous wave(s), so I just ran a binary counter I constucted out of triggers that would just go thorugh and count all the AI flights in the patrol area and all the human players, then spawn the correct number to fill in the gap if there was a defecit.

Feel free to download the missionpack to take a look in the triggerslist of "Hamburger Hill". BUT DON'T SAVE THE MISSION! Else it will be damaged!

- I'm checking if a BLUE client fighter is joined (unit inside zone).

If yes I set a flag (I call it "BLUE").

If not I reset the flag frequently.

- I'm checking if a RED client fighter is joined (unit inside zone).

If yes I set a flag (I call it "RED").

If not I reset the flag frequently.

- If BLUE is true and RED is false the RED A.I. will spawn after 3 minutes. (Time since flag)

- If RED is true and BLUE is false the BLUE A.I. will spawn after 3 minutes. (Time since flag)

- If the first BLUE A.I is shot down and the RED flag is still true the next will spawn. If this is shot down and the flag is still true the next... and so on.

- If the first RED A.I is shot down and the BLUE flag is still true the next will spawn. If this is shot down and the flag is still true the next... and so on.

- If a second client fighter joined the opposite coalition, his flag will be cleard and no A.I. will spawn anymore on his side.

 

The good thing is: If there is a 1:1 Dogfight between an higly skilled client fighter and a lower skilled client fighter, the lower skilled client fighter is able to leave the slot for 3 miuntes. So his A.I. fighters will spanw and support him to take the highly skilled player down.

 

 

 

As far as AI aircraft engaging human helicopter pilots, I've found some unsatisfactory results. They seem to be either "all on" or "all off"- depending on what altitude you give them (I think?) they can either detect a helo flying low to the ground 100% or 0% of the time. So either they will completely pwn the helos or completely leave them alone. Not at all like human fighter pilots. I haven't done EXTENSIVE testing of this, but that was what I found while working on Attack on Krasnodar.

 

I set the A.I.s to 7000 meter altetude. I never saw a A.I. aircraft attacking a client Ka-50.

Edited July 21, 2010 by =STP= Dragon

[RIPTIDE]

Normally, I would agree, but RIPTIDE killed me on the 104th server from at least 20km away with an AMRAAM at high alitude while I was flying a constant 120kmh at 20-30 meters. I would expect that guy could be cheating, but there were some stupid Ka-50 pilots in the area blowing past me at like 250kmh. Could an AMRAAM have locked on to me after launch? Can they do that in DCS/FC2?

 

Anything you don't understand = must be cheating. You stick to that logic. It'll work out great for you. :smilewink:

 

Oh, and the obligatory 'TAC/TRACK or GTFO'

[Speed]

Anything you don't understand = must be cheating. You stick to that logic. It'll work out great for you. :smilewink:

 

Oh, and the obligatory 'TAC/TRACK or GTFO'

 

Is english a second language or something? Read the next sentences.

 

You killed me from at least 15 miles away with an AMRAAM while I was flying at around 125kmh about 25 meters above the ground, and you were flying at least 2000m. On the surface, it looks like you were cheating. But if you simply READ THE NEXT SENTENCES, then I offer a possible explanation, which was confirmed to probably be true by GG. In fact, I never even said I thought you were cheating.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Speed

[Bestandskraft]

160 knots, no. (In fact, you'll have overspeed warnings at that speed. ;) )

160 kilometres per hour - yes, most of the time it will make you extremely hard to pick up on radar. At that speed it does depend on aspect, though. 160km/h towards or away from the radar emitter will have you visible, 160km/h perpendicular to the radar emitter's scan cone will have you hidden. 130km/h or less will hide you almost irrespective of aspect.

 

The phenomenon is called the "look-down clutter notch" - when you advance/retreat with less than ~130km/h compared to the ground, a radar looking down on you will have severe difficulty distinguishing your radar return from the return of the ground behind you, and you'll be filtered.

 

In real life, this is impossible for a helicopter vs a modern radar since the doppler return of the spinning rotor blades is great enough to keep you out of the notch even if you are sitting parked on the ground (but with rotors spinning). This is not implemented in FC2 though and going low-and-slow will hide you very effectively.

 

Note however that this applies only to radar. Fighters with EOS (MiG-29 and Su-27) could still pick your thermal signature up and launch T's, ET's and 73's on you, though I'm unsure of which range.

 

Today I was shot down with an AIM-120 while in a stationary hover (which I had been in for a time greater than the flight time of an AIM-120). The pilot claimed he saw me on radar. Based on the figures presented in this thread and another one I read a while ago that stated that below 72 kph, you are invisible to radar, it seems that this should not have been possible.

 

While I acknowledge that due to the non-modelled doppler effect I should realistically speaking be detectable at any airspeed in-game, I would still like to know whether flying slow actually makes any difference, or if that 72 kph thing has been removed by a patch.

[GGTharos]

In this case, you are probably looking at some lag revealing you by reporting your position as changing, with speed computation based on this.

 

Alternatively, that pilot was flying ridiculously low or at least, the AMRAAM was, thus negating the notch.

 

We had some F-15 guys do this during testing in fact. They'd try to protect their ground forces and, being unable to detect the hovering Ka-50, they'd drop low over the nearby lake, acquire him and he never knew what hit him.

[Bestandskraft]

In this case, you are probably looking at some lag revealing you by reporting your position as changing, with speed computation based on this.

 

Alternatively, that pilot was flying ridiculously low or at least, the AMRAAM was, thus negating the notch.

 

We had some F-15 guys do this during testing in fact. They'd try to protect their ground forces and, being unable to detect the hovering Ka-50, they'd drop low over the nearby lake, acquire him and he never knew what hit him.

 

Sounds reasonable, thanks.

[Heli Shed]

To the OP:

 

It all depends on the Threat. A lone AH pilot is RL does not exist. He is always with a wingman flying shotgun (higher alt and slightly forward), has eyes on the ground or top cover via Fighters. However, there are limitations of the sim in the RL tactics are difficult to implement on a MP server where there are more Lonewolfs than you can shake a stick at, who do some crazy things (albeit effective for a K/D ratio) that real pilots would never implement. I've seen my fair share in RL, but never an F15 at 10m going Mach 1!

 

My advice is as follows:

 

1 - Terrain Masking / NOE flight. - Use the terrain to mask your ingress or shield you from the direction of the likely enemy threat. - Cover from view is as good as cover from fire, if only one of them!

 

2 - Work in a team, even one other Heli pilot. 4 eyes are better than 2!

 

3 - Ask for fighter coverage / CAP at a certain location before you ingress toward it. Fighters are 'Fighters' and therefore dresigned to primarily eliminate and 'air threat' before all else - bombing, SEAD, CAS etc. An AH is pretty much a CAS assett to ground troops.

 

4 - If all of the above fails, and you find yourself flying in a 'lonewolf' capacity, then plot your movement in bounds. Fly to a built up area, buster and low, (<20-30m), on arrival, hold for 5-10 minutes in a hover using the buildings to give you cover from view and fire. Remain in a stable hover and you effectively become invisible to Radar. The no1 eyeball however, can still find you but rest assured that providing your lights are off (specifically Nav) a fast air enemy and even assett will have trouble PID'ing you at even a 1000ft. You however, WILL see him.

 

Good luck.

 

'T'

[EtherealN]

I've seen my fair share in RL, but never an F15 at 10m going Mach 1!

 

Yeah, one night a long while ago on the 104th server I had an enemy F15 sonic-boom me from below while I was flying NOE in a shark. He didn't find me after the pass though. :P Had he instead stayed higher up to avoid self-jamming, I'd have probably eaten a slammer since I had no clue he was in the area...

 

That said, sonic-booming helicopters is a lot of fun, especially if the chopper in question is piloted by Panzertard. :D

[Heli Shed]

Yeah, one night a long while ago on the 104th server I had an enemy F15 sonic-boom me from below while I was flying NOE in a shark. He didn't find me after the pass though. :P Had he instead stayed higher up to avoid self-jamming, I'd have probably eaten a slammer since I had no clue he was in the area...

 

That said, sonic-booming helicopters is a lot of fun, especially if the chopper in question is piloted by Panzertard. :D

 

LOL!:megalol:

 

Thats my whole point though, RL pilots wouldn't dream of doing it in RL. It is however, a phenomena of these sims that players like to go to the extreme left or right with either higher or lower Alt's than real pilots would dare. 10m in an F15 = super funny in the sim world. 10m in an F15 = buy that man a pint in the Real world. But............do it after his court martial.:cry:

 

'T'

[159th_Viper]

I've seen my fair share in RL, but never an F15 at 10m going Mach 1!

 

Stands to reason - A courtesy reserved entirely for the French and their Mirages it would seem!

 

:D

[GGTharos]

F-15's do low altitude training too, but it probably isn't quite like some people imagine it to be.

[Heli Shed]

F-15's do low altitude training too, but it probably isn't quite like some people imagine it to be.

 

Yep, indeed they do. Can't speak for the F15's but i have witnessed and called for, F18's (Dude 21 and 23, wherever you are, thanks - August 29th 2009 - Darishan Garmsir - Helmand) who flew a show of force at 150 ft. Pulled up, AB on, scared the hell out them :pilotfly:.

 

;)

 

'T'

[Toadster]

Patience is a big Virtue in the Shark. Talk the time to brief (or get briefed) of where you want to go to help complete the obejectives. You would need to know what target areas have been wiped out so that you know what objectives are remaining.

 

Fighter cover is a bonus, but not always possible. But if you team up with the A2G crews (A-10, Su25 / 25T, etc), you can be a lethal combination. Being in communication with your fixed winged mud slingers will lessen the chance that you get ordinance dropped on your head.

 

Make a flight plan using your ABRIS and PVI as a reference that doesn't involve the most direct route and spend some time getting to the On Station area. You don't have create new waypoints, but with the ABRIS, you can see how to fly around to get to them. Each waypoint means that there could be some enemy in those areas, so unless the area is 100% cleared of objectives, always approach with caution.

 

As mentioned many times in this thread, always look for cover and be aware of the terrain around you. Open space can equal certain death in an area patrolled by Fighters, so Look around you for quick flying shadows from over head, fly low, occasionally "Hover to Cover" and move on when it's clear.

 

Yes, it will take a while to get somewhere, but you'll not do yourself and your team any favours if you keep getting missiles in the face. So make a plan, grab a few of your favourite beverages, grab a Bio Break and settle in for a long flight.:pilotfly:

 

S!

[Heli Shed]

Patience is a big Virtue in the Shark. Talk the time to brief (or get briefed) of where you want to go to help complete the obejectives. You would need to know what target areas have been wiped out so that you know what objectives are remaining.

 

Fighter cover is a bonus, but not always possible. But if you team up with the A2G crews (A-10, Su25 / 25T, etc), you can be a lethal combination. Being in communication with your fixed winged mud slingers will lessen the chance that you get ordinance dropped on your head.

 

Make a flight plan using your ABRIS and PVI as a reference that doesn't involve the most direct route and spend some time getting to the On Station area. You don't have create new waypoints, but with the ABRIS, you can see how to fly around to get to them. Each waypoint means that there could be some enemy in those areas, so unless the area is 100% cleared of objectives, always approach with caution.

 

As mentioned many times in this thread, always look for cover and be aware of the terrain around you. Open space can equal certain death in an area patrolled by Fighters, so Look around you for quick flying shadows from over head, fly low, occasionally "Hover to Cover" and move on when it's clear.

 

Yes, it will take a while to get somewhere, but you'll not do yourself and your team any favours if you keep getting missiles in the face. So make a plan, grab a few of your favourite beverages, grab a Bio Break and settle in for a long flight.:pilotfly:

 

S!

 

As always, sensible advice. +1 from me.