tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 RL experience - 10,000+ total time helicopters/fixed wing 1,000+ hours in Russian equipment (Su-26, Yak-55, Yak-52, Yak-50, L-39) Type rated in MiG-15/17 (flew a -17 in airshows) 100 hours in Mi-2 helicopter I have 2 issues... Okay so I get the trim. I used to fly a B-205 on forest fires and on long legs I would fly with the forced trim on. (push the trim button to release the brake, move the stick to where you want it, release the trim button) The problem I am having is I will make a trim adjustment (move stick, hit T, release stick) and then try and roll or pitch the aircraft it does not respond until I hit the release trim key. Massive pitch-up...elbows and asshole to try and get it under control again. From suggestions found using the search engine I have discovered that with FD on the aircraft flys very nicely BUT I can't trim it so I always have some kind of stick input in (not centered) Suggestions? Second issue. I will fly the aircraft to a hover behind a hill or tree to set up an attack. I hit the hover key and the aircraft starts pitching forward and gains speed.??? What the heck am I doing wrong here. I really need that hover mode before I go heads down to use the sensors. I have had this sim since it came out but never had the time to devote to learning the systems. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
dok_rp Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I particularly prefer using the old trim style. The non realistic one. Move the stick to where you want it to stay, press and release trim and then re-center the stick. I find that to be more intuitive than the realistic one in which you press trim, re-center the stick and then release the trim button. I guess you have something like 0.5s or so to recenter otherwise you'll lose input in your cyclic until you re-trim the aircraft. As I've already ended up blowing myself up a couple of times due to this loss of input I prefer to stick to what works for me, and that's the pre-patch trim system. To engage autohover make sure you're already on a hover or very close to it, at a speed of less than 5km/h or preferably stationary. I don't like using the autohover. If you trim it well enough you'll be able to keep it stable enough to use the Shkval and not to fall prey to a TOW or a cannon round which will make short work of you if you remain completely stationary. I don't like to spend too much time at the AO hovering as that will end up getting myself killed, unless, of course I am really standing off and engaging from the Vikhr's RMax. In my opinion, that little sidestepping motion you get from the chopper when not under autohover will end up doing you good, since it makes you a little harder to hit. Another pointer, but you are probably very aware of that, is that TrackIR and a Hotas system will greatly help in this sim. Can't think of myself flying without any one of those. Hope it helps a little.
DTWD Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Issue 1: Press trim button, keep it held, position stick, release trim, centre stick. You need to keep the trim button pressed while repositioning the stick. I have it setup as an easy to reach bind on my joystick, also make sure that if you have profiling software with your stick that it's registering that the buton is pressed for the entire button press opposed to just registering one press. In other words the joystick keeps pressing T while the button is pressed down and not just pressing and releasing T no matter how long you leave the button down. Second part of that is that you will probably find you want to make sure the new trimmer method is switched off. In other words, under options>gameplay make sure "centre trimmer" is unticked. Oh and welcome to the forums, if all that flight time is true, on that many aircraft your likely to become quite popular around here. Regards [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
DTWD Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Issue 2: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=935336&postcount=3 Regards [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
DTWD Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Sorry appears dok rp got there first. Regards [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Nate--IRL-- Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Also make sure that the file X:\DCS - Black Shark\Config\Producer.cfg has this line set to false ForceFeedbackEnabled = false; Nate Ka-50 AutoPilot/stabilisation system description and operation by IvanK- Essential Reading
MTFDarkEagle Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) Also make sure that the file X:\DCS - Black Shark\Config\Producer.cfg has this line set to false ForceFeedbackEnabled = false; Nate Do note, this only applies if you have a non-force feedback joystick. But I guess, seen the earth and content of you question, this applies. But as the others say: re-center the controls. On the second issue: make sure in INS is alligned, and you have trimmed in a hover. This doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be a reasonable hover. Also: when you press the hover button: look at the blue damper-channels, to see if they are blinking. If they are not, you should be fine and the auto-hover should engage. So: 1) make sure INS is alligned 2) Trim to hover 3) Press auto-hover 4) Make sure damper channels stay solid. Hope this helps. Edited July 3, 2010 by MTFDarkEagle typo Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Author Posted July 3, 2010 Thanks for the responses. I will check the ForceFeedbackEnabled = false; I am back to my CH products after trying a G940 (I'm afraid to reset the new firmware update that is included in the latest software version) maybe the FF=true. I have a TrackIR 3, and a 4. I have not upgraded to a 5 because the 4 works great. I did not check to see if the INS is aligned. Will check all of this out after shift tonight. I currently fly a B-407 EMS helicopter. I will read the FAQ for instructions on posting pics and post a pic of my Su-26 and MiG-17. When gas prices got stupid I sold the MiG (thank God) and bought a 20 meter Lak glider. Now I really enjoy racing sailboats. (slower and cheaper!)
mikoyan Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Thanks for the responses. I will check the ForceFeedbackEnabled = false; I am back to my CH products after trying a G940 (I'm afraid to reset the new firmware update that is included in the latest software version) maybe the FF=true. I have a TrackIR 3, and a 4. I have not upgraded to a 5 because the 4 works great. I did not check to see if the INS is aligned. Will check all of this out after shift tonight. I currently fly a B-407 EMS helicopter. I will read the FAQ for instructions on posting pics and post a pic of my Su-26 and MiG-17. When gas prices got stupid I sold the MiG (thank God) and bought a 20 meter Lak glider. Now I really enjoy racing sailboats. (slower and cheaper!) post some pictures a lot of people would love to talk to you about your expereince with the mig-17 and su-26:thumbup:
dok_rp Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I did not check to see if the INS is aligned. There is no indication whatsoever that the INS alignment procedure has been completed. Never heard from a developer or from Matt if the 3-minute period is indeed precise, nor have we had any word on how actual Ka-50 find out if INS has finished aligning itself. One must wonder that an Ekran message or light would go off letting the real pilot know the procedure was concluded. The reason why we have a switch for turning redundant landing lights on, but have no idea if and extremely important system, such as the INS, is properly set for flight is simply beyond me. :huh: I guess they probably did not have enough documentation from Kamov to implement this feature in its fullest and just scripted it. Can't tell either on what situations INS Heat should be turned on. I normally leave it off and 3 minutes after switching the INS on I'll consider it aligned. However, I've already had problems under icing conditions, even with all pitot heat switches and anti-icing features enabled to have my speed get stuck at 17km/h on the HUD. I haven't been able to duplicate it, but it has happened. Can't say it was INS misalignment, but can't say it wasn't either. Will check all of this out after shift tonight. I currently fly a B-407 EMS helicopter. I will read the FAQ for instructions on posting pics and post a pic of my Su-26 and MiG-17. When gas prices got stupid I sold the MiG (thank God) and bought a 20 meter Lak glider. Now I really enjoy racing sailboats. (slower and cheaper!) Oh gosh, I'd love to see those pictures. Those are incredible aircraft you've had the luck to fly. Please do share that with us. Thanks!!! :pilotfly:
MTFDarkEagle Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 There is no indication whatsoever that the INS alignment procedure has been completed. There is in fact: if your flying and on the top left you have the speed: if you have the speedindication there, the INS is alligned and ready for autohover. Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
dok_rp Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 There is in fact: if your flying and on the top left you have the speed: if you have the speedindication there, the INS is alligned and ready for autohover. But if you do take off before INS has finish aligning you'll still have the speed indication after it concludes the process, however, all sorts of errors will have been inserted into the zeroing process and your speed won't be accurate, not to mention the mess autopilot will become. What puzzled me on this one occasion I've mentioned was that I was hovering a few meters above the ground and the speed was stuck at 17km/h. I gave it to INS misalignment, even though I can't tell to what extent that is modeled into this sim.
Gadroc Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I am back to my CH products after trying a G940 (I'm afraid to reset the new firmware update that is included in the latest software version) maybe the FF=true. I'd definitely flash the firmware on the G940. I discarded the G940 a while ago and recently pulled it back out of the closet. I'm very happy with it's behavior in Black Shark using 5.09 and the new firmware. Setting the right values on the force feedback settings is import though. I'm using the settings Zerotown recommended which you can see below. The stick now locks in on trim with minimal jerk and stays put. Enable force feedback: ON Total effect strength: 101% Force of the spring-effect: 50% Force of the dampening-effect: 90% Enable centering spring: OFF
EvilBivol-1 Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 My suggestions would be to try and get online with somebody to get some live feedback and assistance. - EB [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer. The Parable of Jane's A-10 Forum Rules
tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Author Posted July 3, 2010 It is always interesting when you google yourself... Someone made a FS model of my Su-26 (it's the tigerstriped one-hard to miss) http://www.fsplanet.com/07072003.htm
tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Author Posted July 3, 2010 400 knots at 20 feet off the ground in front of 100,000 people AND the FAA. Almost worth the price of jet fuel!
Vekkinho Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 RL experience - 10,000+ total time helicopters/fixed wing 1,000+ hours in Russian equipment (Su-26, Yak-55, Yak-52, Yak-50, L-39) Type rated in MiG-15/17 (flew a -17 in airshows) 100 hours in Mi-2 helicopter You're probably a very aged man today! LOL! Congrats on your RL experience! Seriousely, how long did it take to collect all those hours and what's the proper way of calculating? I always wanted to know do RL pilots count a 10 min demo flight as a complete fight hour? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
MTFDarkEagle Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 But if you do take off before INS has finish aligning you'll still have the speed indication after it concludes the process, however, all sorts of errors will have been inserted into the zeroing process and your speed won't be accurate, not to mention the mess autopilot will become. What puzzled me on this one occasion I've mentioned was that I was hovering a few meters above the ground and the speed was stuck at 17km/h. I gave it to INS misalignment, even though I can't tell to what extent that is modeled into this sim. No: the speed indicated is still correct. It is possible to allign in the air. Without a doubt! Do you have a track file showing the speed stuck @ 17? Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
Mar Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 My first post, I hope it can help somebody. I have noticed many things when it comes to auto hover and trimming in DCS: BS, and I have made conclusions based on experience. I don't claim (though I wish I could) to have full understanding of the system it uses. First of all, auto-hover cannot be used below 4 meters, and neither will the HUD display the airspeed provided by data from the INU, that's why the airspeed freezes for you. I assume it's because the designers of the helicopter assumed you wouldn't be stupid enough to try to use a failure-prone system at such a dangerous altitude. Your eyes and intellect should be good enough at 4 meters. As for trimming, the method of holding down the trimmer while you make adjustments is the best way to do it. The autopilots enter corrections to the stick based on inputs from the trimmer. If you just move the stick to the position and then press and release the trim button, you're including the autopilot corrections and leaving more chance for error. At least, that's how I think it is. :pilotfly: <<S>> Mar From the shadows of war's past a demon of the air rises from the grave. "Onward to the land of kings—via the sky of aces!"
tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Author Posted July 3, 2010 You're probably a very aged man today! LOL! Congrats on your RL experience! Seriousely, how long did it take to collect all those hours and what's the proper way of calculating? I always wanted to know do RL pilots count a 10 min demo flight as a complete fight hour? There is a joke with new pilots concerning logging flight time... If you see it log it, if you fly it double it.:D I was very fortunate. I started when I was 19 flying off of a Mexican tuna boat in Central America. I'm 46 now and after 2 engine failures and a tail rotor drive shaft failure I enjoy my nice safe emergency medical helicopter job.
tkairshows Posted July 3, 2010 Author Posted July 3, 2010 My first post, I hope it can help somebody. I have noticed many things when it comes to auto hover and trimming in DCS: BS, and I have made conclusions based on experience. I don't claim (though I wish I could) to have full understanding of the system it uses. First of all, auto-hover cannot be used below 4 meters, and neither will the HUD display the airspeed provided by data from the INU, that's why the airspeed freezes for you. I assume it's because the designers of the helicopter assumed you wouldn't be stupid enough to try to use a failure-prone system at such a dangerous altitude. Your eyes and intellect should be good enough at 4 meters. As for trimming, the method of holding down the trimmer while you make adjustments is the best way to do it. The autopilots enter corrections to the stick based on inputs from the trimmer. If you just move the stick to the position and then press and release the trim button, you're including the autopilot corrections and leaving more chance for error. At least, that's how I think it is. :pilotfly: <<S>> Mar That might be the problem I have been having with the auto hover. I flew it right down to the weeds behind a tree or terrain and the try and auto hover. Additionally I do not remember the speed being shown on the HUD, I was looking at the AS indicator. I probably screwed up the INS by "knob screwing" the Nav system.
Frederf Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Okay so I get the trim. I used to fly a B-205 on forest fires and on long legs I would fly with the forced trim on. (push the trim button to release the brake, move the stick to where you want it, release the trim button) The problem I am having is I will make a trim adjustment (move stick, hit T, release stick) and then try and roll or pitch the aircraft it does not respond until I hit the release trim key. Massive pitch-up...elbows and asshole to try and get it under control again. This is the "new" trimmer scheme introduced in patch 1.01. When you trim you're not given control over the aircraft until your control inputs are returned to the "center window" near 0,0,0 input. This is both the cyclic and rudder. You can widen this window via some text editing in the game's files. Alternately you can use the old pre-1.01 trimmer option that gives you immediate control after trimming with about a 0.5 second blend for some smoothness. From suggestions found using the search engine I have discovered that with FD on the aircraft flys very nicely BUT I can't trim it so I always have some kind of stick input in (not centered) Suggestions?FD just turns off the hold authorities on the AP channels. The normal mechanical trim absolutely works in FD mode. The noticeable off-center input when trimming with FD mode on is likely due to two things: one, achieving perfect trim is next to impossible so the best one can hope for with FD is to have the smallest drift away from trimmed values and two, most/all joysticks have a center-slop that should be tuned out with deadzone adjustments such that all joystick output hands off is always a 0.000 no matter if it's leaning on the left or right edge of the slop. I would suggest putting the trim button on your joystick if you can spare the button space at all. Using T on the keyboard doesn't do justice for how often and natural using the trim button should be. Second issue. I will fly the aircraft to a hover behind a hill or tree to set up an attack. I hit the hover key and the aircraft starts pitching forward and gains speed.??? What the heck am I doing wrong here. I really need that hover mode before I go heads down to use the sensors. I have had this sim since it came out but never had the time to devote to learning the systems. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Auto-hover should really be called "hover hold." You really have to get into a hover by stick 'n rudder for the count of two before engaging the auto-hover system. Overly aggressive entry into auto-hover will cause a conflict between the mechanical trim state and the electronic AP values. Example pitch up to slow down for a hover and engaging auto-hover when the nose is very high just as the aircraft momentarily achieves a hover. Trimming for this means that electronically you want to stay at a hover but mechanical trim is set for a nose-high attitude that, while proper for the deceleration maneuver, is too high for a sustained hover. Also note that the auto-hover system captures a 2D position upon activation. Thus if you drift away from a hover, not only will A.H. attempt to arrest this deviation from a hover, it'll also try to go back the other way to get back to the position last captured. If the HSI needles are pegged off the scale it's usually best to recaptured a new A.H. 2D position. On one final note. The INS system in DCS:BS aligns instantly. 0 seconds. In real life it would take about 10 minutes. The system that takes 3-4 minutes to warm up before flight is not the INS but rather the Doppler navigation system. This is the one that you check is ready by reading the ground speed on the HUD and also the system that deactivates the AP channels (blinking) if you engage A.H. before it's ready and/or descend below 4m radio alt. 1
Scudslaker Posted July 4, 2010 Posted July 4, 2010 welcome pilot!) issue 1 is discussed and should be clear i think, issue 2 sounds to me, like you have to much speed before hitting the hover key, AFAIK this moede only works correctly, if you are below 10 km/h, and on a stable altitude..means climb and descent rate should be leveled. for me, as i really like trimming my beast, i guess you should work on issue 1 to get the handling feeling of the copter and then you should be able to handle issue 2 by manual trimming. good luck on your practice..and many happy landings!) SCUD i don t use the hovermode TM HOTAS WH :joystick:, Saitek Pro Pedals, Track IR 4, 2xJoyWarrier, 1x KeyWarrior, i52500k @4600MHz, ASUS P8Z68-V Pro, NV 670GT, SSD+ WD BC+ WD Raptor, 32HD:pilotfly:[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
tkairshows Posted July 4, 2010 Author Posted July 4, 2010 Okay first off thanks for all of the help. I went home and re-installed the sim. I looked at my CH Products profile and found I had not put HOLD in the key command for the trimmer. The trim now works as advertised. The issue with having to reset the trim before I could move the stick I think comes from having the autopilot engaged to follow the route. I have to review the autopilot nav system procedures (RTFM as I tell my girlfriend) I just don't know about the hover mode. I engaged it using several parameters: 100 kph 200m - brought it to a hover just fine <5 kph 200m - brought it to a hover just fine <5kph <10m - light on but it started moving forward 80 kph 100m in a big flare - brought it to a hover just fine Now that I have the trim issue squared away the aircraft is very stable in a hover. I will continue to try and figure out the hover mode but just hovering it works fine also. Jeez it a wonder that the poor Russian pilots don't just ask for a "time out" in the middle of a battle to get their stuff squared away.
Recommended Posts