another nail in the coffin of the sim industry

[ChromeWasp]

the physics and flight model in this simulator are not realistic at all

 

hard to fly - yes

realistic - no

 

in fact this helicopter feels like a paper bag

 

even at 200 kph it rocks and jumps about as if there is no airflow outside at all - look at it in outside view!

 

its as if the mass has been set to 500 kg instead of 10,000 kg

 

taking off often results in a 720 degree spin - if you watch the outside view you can see the broken contact physics between the wheels and the ground

where did all the torque come from? it is contra-rotating fcs!

 

this is no fun - there are some great simulation ideas here - but the overall package is just a paper bag full of bugs

 

unless you are flying with the autopilot in either route or hover mode

this feels like a robinson r22 full of helium

 

combined with never ending short comings in the software design itself:

- limited control mapping options

- bad window management

- constant minor glitches

- inconsistent and incomplete and badly designed documentation

 

the idea is ok - the execution lacking - another nail in the coffin of the sim industry

[mvsgas]

Do you base your opinion on real life experience? Are you a pilot in RL? Or just your opinion?

I heard this song before from people that have not fully understand how to fly the helicopter.

[159th_Viper]

the physics and flight model in this simulator are not realistic at all

 

 

Surely not serious, are you :)

 

Do us a favour and post a track illustrating your perceived shortcomings of the Helo and we'll be more than happy to correct you/advise accordingly ;)

[mvsgas]

I bet 5 dollars Viper, that he is setting something incorrectly. Maybe flying without the stability augmentation system on, thinking that is the autopilot.

 

Please post a track so we can try to help you.

[Lio]

Calling this game "another nail in the coffin of the sim industry" is just idiotic.

 

If anything ED have saved the sim games on the PC platform. Otherwise we would all have ended up with nothing but Ubisoft HAWX games.

[Distiler]

Chrome, you switched from easy to real flight mode today.

 

You are doing something wrong and you still have a long time to learn how to fly the ka-50. BTW, russian army pilots helped with the sim, and use it afaik.

 

Check this out:

 

 

Post a track if you want some help.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Distiler

[EtherealN]

the physics and flight model in this simulator are not realistic at all

 

I'll inform Kamov and the Ka-50 pilots consulted during development of this. :)

 

hard to fly - yes

realistic - no

 

Actually, compared to most helicopters the Ka-50 is easy to fly.

 

in fact this helicopter feels like a paper bag

 

My personal experience is that it's a flying tank that requires relatively extreme inputs to maneuver quickly.

 

even at 200 kph it rocks and jumps about as if there is no airflow outside at all - look at it in outside view!

 

its as if the mass has been set to 500 kg instead of 10,000 kg

 

I'm sorry, but this looks like a physics question. The Ka-50 has, as you may have noticed, a relatively huge rudder, as well as several other aerofoil surfaces. You should remember that at higher speeds, the effect of wind on those surfaces (including the rotors) will increase squared. Increased airspeed increases the jumpiness simply through the air having an increased precense in the equations governing aircraft behaviour.

 

Still though, as some have said: I suspect you are doing something wrong. My Ka-50 isn't anywhere near "jumpy". My guess is that you are fighting your autopilot channels or otherwise not handling the trimmer correctly.

 

taking off often results in a 720 degree spin - if you watch the outside view you can see the broken contact physics between the wheels and the ground

where did all the torque come from? it is contra-rotating fcs!

 

I have never, ever, in well over a year of flying this simulator, experienced what you describe. If you upload a track file we can have a look to see what you are doing wrong, because I am 100% certain that either you are doing something wrong, or you have your control systems set up in a bad way.

 

unless you are flying with the autopilot in either route or hover mode

this feels like a robinson r22 full of helium

 

How about I fly a quick flight, upload the track, and you can watch that and after that try it yourself? :)

[Tangolima600]

[vortex360]

I have a blast with this game and I just love it.

[einar-st]

Are you serious?... imho Black Shark is about the only thing keeping the sim industry alive at this point (Falcon 4.0 is getting old). I curse each day about the fact that Black Shark is the only relevant study sim at this time.

 

Soon we'll have A-10C too, though! :)

 

I love Black Shark for all its worth, and personlly feel the flight model is just about perfect.

[Frazer]

Oh boy, here we go again........

[bumfire]

This thread is gunna end well.

[Martillo1]

720º? Those're the spirits in your drink, I guess :lol:

 

Seriously, you are doing something wrong, so please provide .trk for us to help you to hone your skills.

[159th_Viper]

This thread is gunna end well.

 

It very well could if allowed to degenerate.........I would have thought that we as a Community are more mature and level-headed than that :)

 

It's obvious that the OP has issues with the Helo. Looking back at my first week with the Shark, I can exactly understand where he's coming from.....If it was not for my bum wrist and a heavier-than-average Cougar, I would have lost the Cougar and my Monitor to a gloriously freaky Comp-Rage incident on more than one occasion........:ranting:

 

I still insist that with a wee bit of patience and a track file the whole issue can be sorted out amicably, provided that the OP is willing of course.

[Steel Jaw]

This thread is gunna end well.

 

 

LOL...so long as it ends.

[Tangolima600]

The learning curve, especially for anyone not familiar with rotary wing physics and operation (trim, flight control systems, etc), is going to burn a lot of hours getting their head around the basics. There are a whole lot of tutorials out now that lay out how to fly the shark in laymen terms since release that will get you in the right direction. The best way to learn is to how helicopters work is to get those reading glasses (or monocle if you're high speed :) ) , there are many books available but I suggest this: http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Helicopter-Flight-W-Wagtendonk/dp/1560276495/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrssi0

 

After that, read the manual thoroughly, this airframe is loaded with equipment that will make your life easier flying while you focus your attention on putting weapons on targets. Watch as many tutorial videos as you can, this youtube channel has pretty much everything you'll need to know how to operate the KA50: http://www.youtube.com/user/eagledcs#p/u/20/WY9E0ipyI38

 

After that, just get as much stick time as you can. feel how the airframe reacts with and without autopilot and flight director.

 

I (big indicator, "I", not everyone) would recommend purchasing a force feedback system. You will notice right away how trim is used to control the airframe. I use the Logitech G940 system and with these settings: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=954388&postcount=118

 

This sim isn't for the recreational gamer. If you have a fetish for aviation, fly model or full scale rotary wing aircraft, you can really appreciate the attention to detail ED and everyone involved put into this. This sim singlehandedly rose an entire genre back from the dead (really really bleached bone dead). Word does spread fast as I mentioned this sim to two people I work with who like PC gaming and both know and admire the sim, that says a lot for a sim that is supposed to be the final nail to the genre.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Tangolima600

[MTFDarkEagle]

Dude... are you serious?

[andysim]

As a long term Ka50 simmer I can say that the flight model is aw inspiring. There are only really 2 military aircraft that Can claim to be at the next level of flightsims, The Ka-50 and the VRS FA-18 from Vertical Reality (FSX but still so awsome). I recomend you keep practising and watch the dev videos on youtube. It really is a fun aircraft to fly when you get the hang of it.

 

 

And with the A-10 on the horizon the future of flight sims is very bright. :)

[bumfire]

The shark is the hardest flight sim out to date, I am still learning it and thats from day 1 of release.

 

Its just not a sim that one can jump into and expect to fly in a matter of hours or days, when I say fly, I mean just that and thats before we even get onto weapons deployment or abris functions and whatever all else.

 

Alot of the times, people who are having problems flying the 50 are normally either fighting the auopilots or have misconfigured their joystick or both or have just jumped into the sim without reading the manual fully and expecting to just be able to take off and start shooting things.

 

Thats normally the case, I had my fair share of cockups and rage on moments when the sim first came out, even now I still get pissed off when something goes wrong that I know was my fault and could of possibly avoided it.

 

Bottom line is, this Sim is NOT another nail in the Sim Industry Coffin, if anything this sim is a nail taken out of the sim industry coffin and with more modules the more nails will be removed :)

 

However, it is hard, it does have bugs and it does have an extreme learning curve compared to easy peasy lockon, stick with it and you will be pleasantly surprised, but stupid thread names like the one above are simply not justified because if anything DCS has revived the waning interest in flight sims in recent years.

[ChromeWasp]

it just seems that everything i try has a problem

 

i was practicing landing and taking off - the grass in that location has some kind of coefficient of friction problem resulting in ridiculous acrobatics

(helicopter actually spinning around 720 degrees or flipping upside down)

 

i went somewhere with different grass - it worked ok

 

as for the physics - sure my turns could be more coordinated etc.

but at 200kph any aircraft of this design should have serious trouble flying sideways! the weathercocking forces are tremendous at that airspeed

yet this helicopter will not only easily yaw at that speed - but hold that attitude! no complaints - no wind noise

 

no way is that right

 

there is also something strange going on with the gyroscope / inu

because sometimes it works ok, other times it just drifts

 

for example: I come to a manual hover, maintain zero vertical and air speeds for a few seconds, then press auto-hover - all the indicators are correct - but it just drifts off - so I turn off auto-hover - fly somewhere else

and try again - works fine

 

the HUD - the symbologies come and go randomly - one second have a hover point marker - next its gone

sometimes i get heading, sometimes i get 30------|------30

or 180------|------180 couple of minutes later it is fine

 

now this could be accurate modelling of a Ka50 - but i find no mention in the flight manual - so I can't tell if its a Ka50 bug or a BS bug

 

it could be me pressing the wrong button etc.

 

there is also if i land (nicely) then take off (nicely) and get up to 40m

then activate autohover - sometimes it violently raises its nose / the 3 ap lights flash - i turn off autohover asap - now the 3 ap channels are deactivated - i am at 25m flying backwards (thanks ap) no choice but to fly

unstabilised to a safe height to turn the ap buttons back on

 

the reason i say "nail in coffin" is exactly because this is the best sim available

 

i am an avid flight simmer (big gpus, trackirs, lots of input devices etc.) and i frustrated with the low quality fragile software and the time it takes to configure things

 

there are lots of good things about Ka50 but flying the helicopter isn't one of them

 

i still can't believe that message "training not available because patch is applied"

 

that is the kind of thing that makes people hate flight sims

 

the only sim I have that impresses me is Condor

not perfect - but a lovely chunk of high quality intelligent software that is a joy to use in every way - and doesn't have grass with a coefficient of friction of 99999999

[andysim]

Chromewasp "there is also if i land (nicely) then take off (nicely) and get up to 40m

then activate autohover - sometimes it violently raises its nose / the 3 ap lights flash - i turn off autohover asap - now the 3 ap channels are deactivated - i am at 25m flying backwards (thanks ap) no choice but to fly

unstabilised to a safe height to turn the ap buttons back on"

 

If your engine RPM drops too low you will get the problem you discribe as there is not enough power to keep the systems on. This can be caused by having a low power setting (the 2 yellow handles on the bottom of the left rear panel) the should be set to auto use Pageup/Pagedown key on your keyboard to move lever to auto. Also If you use to much collective the rotor RPM will drop and you will have systems shutting down.

 

Also the aircraft needs to be reasonably stable before turning on autohover. If you turn it on at anything over 40 Kph you may lose control.

[topdog]

It's not really designed for grass landings (it can't pickup or ferry anybody, other than an emergency where you're going to be walking or waiting thereafter there's no need to even try), and the game certainly isn't.

 

It can be done but the geometry in that part of the landscape doesn't seem so pristine.. then again I doubt for real it would be so perfectly flat as it appears anyway.

 

If you get any of those back-flipping moments when landing on the farp or airports that would almost certainly be due to forgetting to turn off auto-hover and/or alt hold AP.

 

Do you put the controls overlay box on your screen? The one in the bottom left corner with a press of right-ctrl + enter? If you're floating out of autohover it would seem probable that whilst you might momentarily be manually hovering, if the controls are set to allow you to drift then you can still drift even with autohover on. I can also suggest that if you load up and view someone else's posted tracks to see how they do things, pulling up this box (if they don't do it for you as part of their own flying) will help you to 'see' what they're doing with the controls that are often out of sight.

 

One thing that I'm reminded of - if you have extra controllers plugged in during your flight (even if not in use, like steering wheel or another stick, etc.), they might be interfering too and you could try disconnecting them.

 

A lot of us are taking off, landing, and using autohover several times of every day in black shark - it can be done, but figuring out what you could be doing wrong is going to take some head scratching, the sim isn't designed in its 'real mode' to be forgiving in any way.

 

And another thing that comes to mind; check and make sure there's no usage or overlap in the control configuration with the Trim Reset function and those events where you're nosing up and backflipping unexpectedly.

 

Trim Reset is generally best reserved for when you're on the ground, you wouldn't make common use of it (if at all) whilst up in the air.

 

Last but not least; instead of just describing the things you're having difficulty with, take or make the track file that was created to demonstrate the fault and post that with it. I know you've posted track files in another thread already, but if you can, do it for each bizarre control gripe you come across as there's likely to be an easy explanation when it can be actually replayed to be seen.

[ChromeWasp]

put simply - i know loads of people who would love to fly a helicopter sim

but they know

a) it will be a pain to setup

b) it will be annoying to use

and they will be right

 

i mean how can it be sensible to give people a choice of 1 monitor or 3 monitors but not 2 monitors?

2 monitors is easy to setup, 3 requires 2 gpus or special jizzy wigs

why did I have to download and debug a LUA file for that?

 

why can I not put clickable instrument panel sections on my second monitor?

 

why are there no "function on" "function off" control options?

almost everything is a toggle - so you need to either check the state before pressing, or check it after ... even with trackir it is a pain

 

the closest thing to reality is to let people glance at the controls quickly

 

in FS4 my 777 has two 1680x1050 monitors filled with clickable panels

it works really well - just like real life I can see and manipulate anything quickly

 

what about FPS!

 

if I play apache air assault i get less sophisticated but very nice graphics and a very high FPS - even in rain, fog, long draw distance etc.

 

in BS I get 12 to 32 - on low

 

the point here isn't "get a bigger rig" it is "frame rate is king - anything below 30 fps shouldn't be on sale"

 

this software should be able to maintain 30 fps on my pc

they should do as I do - develop and test on old rubbish computers

 

that way you end up with tight efficient performant programs

 

instead these guys probably had 16 gb quad cores with 4xSSD in raid0

and "it works ok for me oh look how nice it is ..."

 

i would be willing to swap alot of gimmicks for a higher frame rate

and a sensible UI

 

I just wish it worked properly and wasn't annoying

[m0jo]

as for the physics - sure my turns could be more coordinated etc.

but at 200kph any aircraft of this design should have serious trouble flying sideways! the weathercocking forces are tremendous at that airspeed

yet this helicopter will not only easily yaw at that speed - but hold that attitude! no complaints - no wind noise

 

no way is that right

The Ka-50 can produce a lot of torque with the co-axial rotor and the rudder also help. Real Ka-50 are able to move sideway at speed up to 100km/h

there is also something strange going on with the gyroscope / inu

because sometimes it works ok, other times it just drifts

 

for example: I come to a manual hover, maintain zero vertical and air speeds for a few seconds, then press auto-hover - all the indicators are correct - but it just drifts off - so I turn off auto-hover - fly somewhere else

and try again - works fine

 

Trim before, the auto-hover can only compensate 20% of pilot input

 

the HUD - the symbologies come and go randomly - one second have a hover point marker - next its gone

sometimes i get heading, sometimes i get 30------|------30

or 180------|------180 couple of minutes later it is fine

 

now this could be accurate modelling of a Ka50 - but i find no mention in the flight manual - so I can't tell if its a Ka50 bug or a BS bug

 

it could be me pressing the wrong button etc.

Not a bug, a target was probably selected and the heading shown was the heading to the target

there is also if i land (nicely) then take off (nicely) and get up to 40m

then activate autohover - sometimes it violently raises its nose / the 3 ap lights flash - i turn off autohover asap - now the 3 ap channels are deactivated - i am at 25m flying backwards (thanks ap) no choice but to fly

unstabilised to a safe height to turn the ap buttons back on

Trim before using auto-hover. The AP have desactivated themselves because you lost AC power somewhere 3 minutes before engaging auto-hover. The INU need 3 minutes to realign itself and auto-hover only work with a working INU/doppler radar. The lost of AC power was probably due to a low rotor RPM condition

[EtherealN]

Grass with a coefficient of friction of 99999999...

 

How strange then that I have, several times, executed emergency landings with engines out on, you guessed it, grass. :)

 

Again, if you could please supply a track file showing what you are having a problem with, it can be analyzed and we can give you guidence. If we don't have that all I can say is that I do not recognize anything aside from the normal "beginner's problems".

 

Also:

On the quip about R22's with helium etcetera, I assume you have flown both R22's and 10-tonne attack helicopters IRL to make this judgement? ;)

 

Oh, and Condor is good, but only within it's limits. I used Condor during initial flight training, and while it's flight models are relatively close to the real deal of the aircraft it is simulating, it is still a table sim and you'll notice the difference when you compare the simulator results of a given regime with flying the real aircraft in that same regime. I've done that test. :)

 

Also, Condor is positively generous when it comes to the forces in play with a proper outlanding. A terrain landing in Condor is a massage with silk gloves compared to a real landing in terrain. Again: I have done that test. ;)

 

EDIT:

Also, on your tangent about FPS: what is your system? You are comparing table simulators with a simulator that is doing real-time physics. This is like saying that your computer can run tetris so it should be able to run Bad Company 2 - since it's the same amount of pixels...

Edited August 9, 2010 by EtherealN