another nail in the coffin of the sim industry

[joey45]

if I play apache air assault i get less sophisticated but very nice graphics and a very high FPS - even in rain, fog, long draw distance etc.

different game, different engine

 

the point here isn't "get a bigger rig" it is "frame rate is king - anything below 30 fps shouldn't be on sale"

change your graphic settings.... everything doesn't always have to be on "high". The engine relys more on CPU then GPU.

[mvsgas]

Well, I'm still waiting for a track to see if I can help you ( many of us are)

Until then, I guess you just want to vent about your frustrations.

[Baal1606687932]

i was practicing landing and taking off - the grass in that location has some kind of coefficient of friction problem resulting in ridiculous acrobatics

(helicopter actually spinning around 720 degrees or flipping upside down)

 

i went somewhere with different grass - it worked ok

 

Maybe it is a dumb idea, but it seems like IMMORTAL setting is turned on.

Btw, if you took control over the heli in some track, the setting of the track will be used, no matter if USE THESE OPTIONS FOR ALL MISSIONS is checked or not.

[LIONPRIDE]

... if I play apache air assault i get less sophisticated but very nice graphics and a very high FPS - even in rain, fog, long draw distance etc.

 

 

You're comments are without merit and YOU, sir, are a TROLL and should be treated as such. When you made the comment above after that initial rant - I lost all respect for you.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[aairon]

Well if he were a "troll" then that would be playing into his hand.

I have no idea what his motivation is other that he seems to be upset that he can't jump right in and figure everything out.

I fly an R44 IRL at least 4 hrs a week and I thought for sure that this was going to be a rant about how it's too arcade like and far to easy to fly in simulator mode.

I just have hard time understanding anyone, even a relative newcomer having much problem taking off and landing anywhere, Grass or otherwise.

I have taught my lady friend to fly the thing in a couple of hours to the point that she could land it anywhere, with no auto pilot or stabilization functions engaged(she did die a simulated death a couple of times in the process):(.

I'm not understanding the original statement about landing in the grass but am even far more mystified by the response that it was not intended to land in the grass away from a FARP/FRB etc.. it is a helicopter after all.

If a lady who never flew any flight sim before can grasp the basics well enough to land in the terrifying grass and come to a stable landing and shut engines down and restart and take off again, and some folks here are saying "well it's not meant to land in grass".

The KA-50 is far easier to fly then the R-22 model in FSX (just flight dynamics part).

Who knows if the guy is a troll.

He has yet to submit a Track of the said issues.

I really think that the OP is over looking something major here.

I was informed of some major errors in this response and have corrected them.

Thanks quinncidence :)

Edited August 9, 2010 by aairon

[SonofEil]

As a pilot (as I'm sure many of you are), with time in helos big and small, I have to say this:

Though DCS:BS may have a few shorcomings, the flight dynamics are not on that list. The flight fidelity of this sim is without equal in the PC world. I actually don't go around shooting too many things in this sim. I plan routes and explore the KA-50's flight envelope under varying conditions, and I'm constantly surprised at the level of realism. Is there a lot to learn? Of course! Are the flight controls and avionics confusing? Sometimes. (I mean, it's Russian! :smilewink: ) But blame Kamov. ED gave you an arcade mode if you don't want to learn to fly the thing.

As for ease of use, regarding UI; Again, I've had a much easier time with Black Shark than with most other sims. I have never even ventured into BS's config files, and I think that's saying something!

 

As for...

 

Who knows if the guy is a troll I've learned more in this thread about the community and the response to him then I did from his "rant".

 

Thanks for attributing one person's comment to the entire community. :no_sad:

Everyone else has been pleading for a track file and asking for more details so as to help him. ChromeWasp continues to claim what other sims can and can't do and making baseless, generalized accusations. It sounds like a rant to me, born of frustration due to lack of experience with the system.

Edited August 9, 2010 by SonofEil

[aairon]

Thanks for attributing one person's comment to the entire community. :no_sad:

Everyone else has been pleading for a track file and asking for more details so as to help him. ChromeWasp continues to claim what other sims can and can't do and making baseless, generalized accusations. It sounds like a rant to me.

You're absolutely correct that was unfair of me.

 

I revised my post, thanks for the constructive criticism. :)

Edited August 9, 2010 by aairon

[SonofEil]

No worries!

[einar-st]

Everyone else has been pleading for a track file and asking for more details so as to help him.

 

And this is even after he goes around trashing the sim on its own forums. Hardly the best way to ask for help or hints...

[ChromeWasp]

i hope i'm not a troll

i know that one button wrong can cause chaos

 

i will check out that power settings thing

 

i will make a track just don't want to upload a long one with something going wrong at the end

 

condor made me think of something - there is no wind noise in BS

and combined with very light windcocking forces gives the heli a very light feel

 

i did a bunch of low figures of 8 - good way to tidy up turns as if you don't balance the forces properly - you hit the ground ...

 

i guess my frustration comes from behaviour that wouldn't make sense IRL

why would an autopilot activate itself knowing it has insufficient inputs

throw the helicopter into a wobbly and then turn off stability?

 

common sense would say the AP would simply refuse to activate and put up a warning light

 

the kinds of mistakes i have made (and see the sense in them)

 

- trying to fly away with Q turn to target still on

- activating hover with flight director on

- activating route autopilot in wrong mode and flying into a hill

- pressing designate instead of lock with turn to target on

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

don't get me wrong - I am enjoying it - just think I could enjoy it alot more

plus irritated i can't easily use it with my 19" touch screen, that with a bunch of FSX panels on it is fantastic - although I could use it as primary with trackir - look with head and touch with finger ... hmmmmm

[ChromeWasp]

"You are comparing table simulators with a simulator that is doing real-time physics"

 

the physics involved in this simulator could run on a bbc micro or your mobile phone easily

 

you can write the physics code for a passable helicopter in about 20 minutes

 

the only thing stressing out my PC is unnecessary graphical gimmicks, too many triangles, too many "nice bits" and not enough efficiency

 

they should focus on the important things first

 

it is a very rare developer who can pull off both performance and gimmicks

 

but what is the point in those gimmicks if:

 

- it makes the game uncomfortable

- limits your market

- annoys me

 

just look at games like Just Cause 2 on a weedy xbox360 - first of the 8th generation gpus with only 48 cores - terrible unified memory bandwidth

and cheap-as-chips cpu // running at 30 to 60 fps with 200 mile draw distance and about the same level of AI as BS

 

my PC is at least 4 times more powerful than an xbox360

and has 8.5 times the memory!

 

rockstar made same mistake with GTA4 - too many clever tricks = end result = unplayable garbage

 

the most enjoyable heli-sim is the apache missions in GTASA

sure it is a simplified flight model but you have to fly it like a helicopter

and chasing people around skyscrapers, inside tunnels and shopping centers takes lots of skill - plus you can earn over $20,000,000 if you are good enough - if it gets too easy just use the cannon only and that runs on a PS2

with simpler flight model but much superior contact physics

[bumfire]

the most enjoyable heli-sim is the apache missions in GTASA

 

The helo missions in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas ?

 

Please tell me you dont really mean it when you say "Heli-Sim"

 

As there is nothing Sim about the helo's in ANY of the GTA games.

 

Maybe enjoyable ? but Sim it is not and, if your basing all of your assumptions on how the KA-50 should fly on the way Helo's fly in GTA, then either this Sim isnt for you or you need to forget about everything you learned about Helo's when playing GTA and start afresh with DCS.

[aairon]

This has officially entered into the twilight ZONE.

I don't know whether to Laugh or what

 

I've got an idea put it in game mode turn all help/invincible etc.. and convert your enemy kills to $$$ Sorry but you will have to use your imagination to visualize the ladies at the mall running in terror as you strafe them with your cannon, but if you think the chopper in GTA is a Sim then your imagination should have no problem.

Edited August 9, 2010 by aairon

[SonofEil]

No way! I don't believe it! Black Shark has just been trumped by Grand Theft Auto!

GTA used in the same sentence with "sim", boy I really never thought I'd see the day.:lol:

 

Ok ok, I'm going to try to take this seriously now. Ummm. Ok, I'm ready:

 

Starting out with BS I had many of the same problems you've described. I can't stress enough that you need to read all of the documentation. I know it's a big pdf, but just about everything in there is important. And to be honest, I still had plenty of trouble with the systems after reading the entire book. Sooooo, head to youtube and watch all of the producer's notes by Wagmatt. After that, things will start coming together and you'll be able to fly this amazing bird. If you've read some of the book and seen a couple of the videos, it's not enough. Read/watch all of it. They call it a "study" sim for a very specific reason!

 

I'm going to go take a cold shower now. Seriously, GTASA. I really never thought....man, I feel dizzy.

Edited August 9, 2010 by SonofEil

[bumfire]

:laugh: or :cry: ?

[aairon]

Same :megalol: or :doh:

[Blaze]

the most enjoyable heli-sim is the apache missions in GTASA

Speechless...all this time I've been wasting my time with BS, who would've guessed?! :doh:

[aairon]

Yep we been missing all the realizem of flying down city streets and blowin hookers up with ATG missles and straffing little old ladies at da mall wid our mini gun, It don't git mo real den dat clem. Here we bin thinkin dis thin be soo reel but we been rong yessiree we dun bin messin up wid dis unrelistic sim black shark, wtf ain't no hookers or nuthin! dem dudes at ED got's ta git

day stuf togeter. da fizix of flien da chopper inside da bildens is totaly rite on! an u can tell da fisix is reel cause you can land on da lawn at da park an it don speen round all da time den flip upsid doun an esplode

 

luk at dis i made a mod an i flien da blak shark in gta. lukin fo some hookers an pimps to blast.

still wurkin on da AC-10c mod, den wach out here we cum.day don got no insterments but we don need dat junk we can see ware we goin.

Edited August 9, 2010 by aairon

[bumfire]

Ha! :lol:

[EtherealN]

i will make a track just don't want to upload a long one with something going wrong at the end

 

condor made me think of something - there is no wind noise in BS

and combined with very light windcocking forces gives the heli a very light feel

 

Just fly, save the track after the flight, then attach the .trk. It's just one or two megabyte anyhow.

 

Also, do remember that there should not be any wind noise. In an attack helicopter you are sitting in a sound-proofed cockpit wearing a sound-proofed helmet with noise-cancelling headphones... Be happy you can hear your rotors. :P

 

i guess my frustration comes from behaviour that wouldn't make sense IRL why would an autopilot activate itself knowing it has insufficient inputs throw the helicopter into a wobbly and then turn off stability?

 

Because that's how it's built. Pilots use checklists for a reason. ;)

 

the physics involved in this simulator could run on a bbc micro or your mobile phone easily

 

you can write the physics code for a passable helicopter in about 20 minutes

 

Well, hello again Mr. Troll. ;)

Seriously speaking, do you really believe yourself there? I do wish people who say silly stuff like that would at least show the courtesy of putting their money where their mouths are: go ahead and do it.

 

If you can't do it, then you are not qualified to make that judgement and should stop acting like a troll.

 

the only thing stressing out my PC is unnecessary graphical gimmicks, too many triangles, too many "nice bits" and not enough efficiency

 

Weird then that my old graphics card (a 9800) can run the "nice bits" and "graphical gimmicks" perfectly, with the only impactor on FPS being my CPU clock.

 

Quite simply, I believe you are completely misreading what's happening inside your computer as far as simulator performance goes.

 

but what is the point in those gimmicks if:

 

- it makes the game uncomfortable

- limits your market

- annoys me

 

They do not make the game uncomfortable.

They are the reason people are buying it in the first place.

They ensure synergies with the military market.

 

Strangely enough, the world isn't always about pleasing you. ;)

 

just look at games like Just Cause 2 on a weedy xbox360 - first of the 8th generation gpus with only 48 cores - terrible unified memory bandwidth

and cheap-as-chips cpu // running at 30 to 60 fps with 200 mile draw distance and about the same level of AI as BS

 

my PC is at least 4 times more powerful than an xbox360

and has 8.5 times the memory!

 

I'm still waiting for that 20-minute simulation engine. When you have made that I'll consider you an authority on programming.

 

Basically, here's a hint: PC's are by definition extremely inefficient compared to consoles. This is because console programmers know exactly what hardware they are going to run on and can program optimizations specifically for it. Programmers working on the PC platform need to optimize of literally billions of possible system configurations.

 

Again: if you think it's simple, please show your credentials and just go ahead and do it. You've spent more time on this forum lamenting this than it would take for you to program your own simulation engine!

 

the most enjoyable heli-sim is the apache missions in GTASA

sure it is a simplified flight model

 

Actually, I'd contest that it has a flight model at all. That is even further away from a "sim" than HAWX. :P

[ZaltysZ]

you can write the physics code for a passable helicopter in about 20 minutes

 

Yes, of course. But "passable" is very subjective word. :D

 

Edited August 9, 2010 by ZaltysZ

[mvsgas]

Fells like once a month, a new guys has to tell us how wrong DCS BS is and how someones else should fix it because in Top Gun 2 he can kick ass and not in BS :joystick:

[element1108]

the physics and flight model in this simulator are not realistic at all

 

hard to fly - yes

realistic - no

 

in fact this helicopter feels like a paper bag

 

even at 200 kph it rocks and jumps about as if there is no airflow outside at all - look at it in outside view!

 

its as if the mass has been set to 500 kg instead of 10,000 kg

 

taking off often results in a 720 degree spin - if you watch the outside view you can see the broken contact physics between the wheels and the ground

where did all the torque come from? it is contra-rotating fcs!

 

this is no fun - there are some great simulation ideas here - but the overall package is just a paper bag full of bugs

 

unless you are flying with the autopilot in either route or hover mode

this feels like a robinson r22 full of helium

 

combined with never ending short comings in the software design itself:

- limited control mapping options

- bad window management

- constant minor glitches

- inconsistent and incomplete and badly designed documentation

 

the idea is ok - the execution lacking - another nail in the coffin of the sim industry

 

I would like to know what your basis of comparison is. I disagree fully with almost everything you said, but you are entitled to your opinion of course.

[ChromeWasp]

it is possible to write a simulator with the same physics and less graphical luxury - by doing so they will massively increase their potential market

 

this kind of small-scale physics is really not taxing for a pc

 

I run BS now on a single monitor at 1152x8?? with all settings on LOW

and still at crucial moments it sits at 12 fps

 

if I need to buy a new pc that means BS is no longer $40 but $2040

and my pc has ample power to run a helicopter simulator ... if the sim is designed with the right approach

 

Dump the gimmicks - give me the FPS - if I want to look at paintings I will go to an art gallery

 

anyway here is a track showing autohover not holding position (gradually creeping forward until i can't release weapons any more)

 

i hope somebody can show me my mistake(s)

 

(edit) i attached screenshot of one of my games that uses my flight sim engine - on my pc that will run at 240 fps with global scenery and 100 alien AIs plus 1000s of bullets and explosion fragments etc.

on the xbox360 it runs at 110 fps - yes the clouds are cheap - by design - they function as clouds - fly to cloudbase and you will know it! I don't waste time, energy or clock cycles on gimmicks because I realise that FPS is more important - plus this uses no more than 10% of a single core to run

and to help answer a forum question about helicopters i wrote a working but basic helicopter model for this game in 20 minutes and I will bet the BS programmers are much cleverer than me

Edited August 9, 2010 by ChromeWasp

[Boberro]

Well I forgot to add in the firsts posts that i feel many pages :P

 

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