A10 warthog problem

[ralfidude]

Many many complaints on the mavericks from a few people including myself.

 

What has happened since FC1? The mavericks are completely off, they dont seem to recognize targets.

 

I can be 2 miles out from a target and it will target a building or something completely arbitrary to the side half a click away from it.

 

Additionally, you cannot pick specific targets either. Per say, a column or armor, you spot the highest threat and want to engage, but the maverick will only pick up on the lead and trail target, or sometimes the third one from the beggining or back.... :mad:

 

Whats happened? I would understand if it behaved like this if i were about 8 miles out, but not when i get as close as 2 miles...

 

Every single AA is easily engaging me before i can get a lock on them, and i have to bug off before attempting another run... even if he is the ONLY target around in an open field...

 

I have tried different altitudes with the same results... Is this a bug, a feature, or what?

 

 

PS: i made 5 of my friends buy this game, all 5 are experiencing the same problems.

[159th_Viper]

... even if he is the ONLY target around in an open field....

 

Kindly post a track of the behaviour experienced as mentioned. With any potential problem/bug report it facilitates troubleshooting immensely if one has regard to the track file :)

[Moa]

Very well known bug introduced in FC2. It affects everyone. See this following threads:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=54534

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=53930

 

The IIR seeker locking random stuff used to be a minor problem in FC1 but is a major one in FC2. Note this is a problem of the missile not the A-10A, since I see the same effect when flying the EFA Harrier.

 

Edit: And this one (has a comment from, Wags about the model, but doesn't mention SHORAD specifically being degraded) ... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=53750

Edited August 21, 2010 by Moa

[ralfidude]

IS there a patch in the making? or something? Anything?

 

I will post a video of it as soon as i can, but it will be a youtube vid.

[ralfidude]

Ok This video just shows one little problem. Its a vid i made a while back when i first played FC2, im a FC1 vet, so im trying to lock on to the target on the left as you can see, but it ONLY and ONLY wants to lock on to the one target, so i was forced to go for that one instead. I will make a MUCH more clearer picture of whats going, but its exactly the same thing as in those other threads.

 

 

Skip to 1:53, or watch the entire thing if you like it.

[159th_Viper]

...but its exactly the same thing as in those other threads....

 

Have you tried the interem 'solution' as detailed in the threads concerned?

[ralfidude]

Their solution... was none. They said to use mouse to slew the seeker. However it does not fix the whole, "Its locking on to everything but the targets" problem.

[159th_Viper]

The only bug/issue at present is the slewing problem. As stated in the threads linked to, all other behaviour is well within reasonable parameters. Inability to obtain lock can accordingly not be attributed to a bug/shortcoming of the Sim.

 

In the absence of a track, there is nothing further that can be done, unfortunately. In circumstances such as these, having regard to tracks are a necessity.

[ralfidude]

working on video now.

[HiJack]

Inability to obtain lock can accordingly not be attributed to a bug/shortcoming of the Sim.

 

You should seriously fly some attack runs on Strela and Shilka's and produce a perfect lock ;) Do a video of the happening as well Viper.

 

(HJ)

[159th_Viper]

You should seriously fly some attack runs on Strela and Shilka's and produce a perfect lock ;) Do a video of the happening as well Viper.

 

(HJ)

 

I don't do video ;)

 

Herewith attached however find a track recorded with vanilla patched install (no mods). Scenario is the following:

 

On-road convoy comprising the following:

 

Unit #1 - ZSU-23

Unit #2 - Strela

Unit #3,4 - BDRM-2

Unit #5 - ZSU-23

Unit #6,7,8,9 - BDRM-2

Unit #10 - ZSU-23

 

All unit skill-level set to excellent. Prosecution of target based on assumption of Ground-Intel relating to Unit position within convoy. In any event, largely academic as Units are identifiable easily enough on Mav display.

 

Targets sorted and prosecuted in a single pass. Slight difficulty is noted with the locking up of the ZSU (unit 5 - however stands to reason as it is smack in the middle of the convoy). Strela is engaged within unit's WEZ, but missile spoofed with countermeasures and unit destroyed. A more cautious/stand-off approach might be advisable considering, but this was an illustration of a principle, caution ignored.

 

In conclusion and as stated in previous threads/posts, apart from the misbehaving slew control, nothing untoward in the SIM. Might be that we are all too spoiled with the previous reiterations of the 'Majik Mav' :)

 

 

[ATTACH]41731[/ATTACH]

[Moa]

"Works for me" is a classic tester response. The fact is a large number of people *are* affected by the issue and find it unsatisfactory. Of course, this makes it hard for you to diagnose what you are lucky enough to be unable to reproduce.

 

No matter. Even if the fault was acknowledged we are well conditioned that ED's current position is that there will be no more patches for LockOn.

[HiJack]

Lucky track there Viper ;) You can clearly see that the maw is locking on to all other units easily but will not lock on to the AAA unit.

 

I recommend trying out a fixed Strela surrounded by other units like ammunition truck and other “cold” units. You will have a bigger problem locking up the Strela. The slew problem is more visible if you zoom in on the targets. AI A-10A has no problem locking up AAA.

 

It’s too bad that ED have decided to not release updates to FC2! I was not aware of this decision.

[159th_Viper]

"Works for me" is a classic tester response....

 

Watch the track. What more can I say.........If you cannot see for yourself that there is nothing untoward, well then I cannot help you further.

 

Lucky track there Viper ;)....

 

What's lucky about it?

 

.....but will not lock on to the AAA unit....

 

And yet it was destroyed, surrounded by a convoy of vehicles :doh:

 

...The slew problem is more visible if you zoom in on the targets.

 

Then don't zoom.

 

 

I recommend trying out a fixed Strela surrounded by other units like ammunition truck and other “cold” units......

 

What - destroying an active, moving Strela not good enough?

 

 

Honestly, on what do you base the 'assumption' that a Mav IRL would function any different than it does now in FC2 (slew issue aside)?

 

As I said, thankfully no more 'Majik-Mav! Until you have data to contradict said functionality currently implemented In-Game, then kindly cease to blame the SIM for shortcomings that can easily be addressed with more practice ;)

[HiJack]

Never said I had any problem with it but it’s not working the way it is designed IRL. FC2 is a “real as it gets SIM” in all other discussions on this forum. I guess the “realism” part only applies to RUS aircrafts then ;)

 

 

Edited August 20, 2010 by HiJack

[159th_Viper]

.....but it’s not working the way it is designed IRL.....

 

How so? That's what you need to substantiate. Not good enough to state that it's not working correctly without at least some type of information corroborating your version....:)

 

ED (and for what it's worth, these tweaks were brought about before I became a Tester so I'm not talking from a 'I'm a Tester' position) have explained why the parameters have been tweaked for various vehicles, explaining why it's easier to obtain lock/lock obtained earlier on some units as opposed to others etc etc, which explains the current behaviour rather well.

 

Yes - it has been stated that the SIM is as “real as it gets"....You need to however be reasonable and take into account the inherent contraints of the engine/technology etc etc at time of development. If we had to take that statement literally, there would be no need to DCS:A10C and further modules, now would there :)

 

As an aside, herewith track of Strela-10 destroyed surrounded by vehicles as you alluded to.

Yes - it might be a tad difficult obtaining lock and engaging, but infinitely more preferable to the 'Shooting Fish-in-a-Barrel' scenario, no?

 

 

[ATTACH]41745[/ATTACH]

[EtherealN]

FC2 is a “real as it gets SIM” in all other discussions on this forum.

 

No, that's DCS.

FC2 != DCS.

[Nerdwing]

Is the lock-distance per vehicle/target tweakable in any way on the player's end, for offliners?

[HiJack]

Well, not to drag this any further but I find it strange that a “cold” truck is easier to lock on to than an AAA system with electricity systems and a rotating radar running. I think this would generate a better heat signature than the parked truck. The truck by the way is locked from a longer distance so there is a setting somewhere telling the Maw that the AAA is a no go until you are in the AAA’s firing range.

 

The challenge in taking out Strela with these defects is in my mind NOT good for the SIM. There are ways to plan a battlefield that covers the challenge. Just complete the A-10 campaign with FC2 unpatched and then do the same campaign in the patched version. Making missions that in fact make you be more aware on the battlefield is much better I think than crippling some tactical weapon. But I guess someone recommended ED to make the AGM-65D Maverick more difficult to use against AAA then it was supposed to be and I think that is a bad decision. But again this is of course my view of things and I Lowe the A-10 and flies as often as possible.

 

(HJ)

[Moa]

I have not used or fired a Maverick. However I have used an Imaging Infrared system on a real life P3 Orion during flight. It was *very* easy to spot features and discriminate objects, especially at night.

 

Please do not imply your users are clueless n00bs, although we may sometimes seem that way. We are trying to point out a flaw in the game that exists for us and it doesn't seem clear you want to hear it. In analogy, is as if this problem only affected ATI video card users but because you are using an Nvidia you think everything is fine. Denying we have a problem helps no-one - and certainly doesn't help the product get any better. In my years as a developer I've learnt (although it took a while) that while the problem often exists between the chair and the keyboard often there will be real faults that you cannot reproduce in your development environment. So, to help you we need to provide you with evidence of what we are seeing. Despite me writing the lottu software for FC2 I've never converted a track to video - I'll try and do this this weekend for you.

[159th_Viper]

I have not used or fired a Maverick....

 

IRL, neither have I, although I struggle to see the relevance herein.

 

....However I have used an Imaging Infrared system on a real life P3 Orion during flight. It was *very* easy to spot features and discriminate objects, especially at night.....

 

Then I'm sure you can appreciate the substantial difference between the IR system you utilized and the Mav seeker.....or are you saying the systems are comparable? In any event, as per the tracks above, units easily identifiable and sorted via the MAV Seeker in-SIM.

 

 

 

Please do not imply your users are clueless n00bs, although we may sometimes seem that way....

 

Let's not go there, shall we :)

 

 

 

.....We are trying to point out a flaw in the game that exists for us and it doesn't seem clear you want to hear it......

 

The flaw being an 'inability' to obtain lock under any circumstances? Having had regard to a 'solution' posted, is it then still your contention that lock cannot be obtained at all when attempting to engage AAA/IR SAM's?

 

 

...Denying we have a problem helps no-one - and certainly doesn't help the product get any better....

 

No-one's denying an issue exists........I just question where the blame is conveniently put.

 

 

......So, to help you we need to provide you with evidence of what we are seeing.....

 

Issue is simple really, isn't it? Lock against a AAA/IR SAM system cannot be easily obtained from stand-off range, resulting in a convenient kill and all of a sudden it's a bug......Never mind the fact that difficulty in obtaining lock can be attributed to factors calculated to add to the survivability of Ground Units in an effort to negate the inherent shortcomings of the Ground-AI and lessen the 'Turkey-Shoot' that was prevalent pre-patch.

 

 

......Despite me writing the lottu software for FC2 I've never converted a track to video - I'll try and do this this weekend for you.

 

You've lost me - Why would you want to convert track to video?

[Nerdwing]

Issue is simple really, isn't it? Lock against a AAA/IR SAM system cannot be easily obtained from stand-off range, resulting in a convenient kill and all of a sudden it's a bug......Never mind the fact that difficulty in obtaining lock can be attributed to factors calculated to add to the survivability of Ground Units in an effort to negate the inherent shortcomings of the Ground-AI and lessen the 'Turkey-Shoot' that was prevalent pre-patch.

 

I think part of the confusion is that no developer has outright said "We changed this to prevent a turkey shoot scenariot". So its unknown whether we are reporting a bug, or if this was a conscious design change made on ED's part. People are unsure if this was a bug that slipped in, or if (as seems more likely) it was introduced purposefully to increase difficulty for A10 pilots.

 

...kinda like BMP's shooting and tracking you with relative ease... :(

 

I personally think that it should be restored to how it was, and folks who make missions in the future should keep the ability of ground attack aircraft to acquire IR sams in mind as they deploy them.

 

It seems as if the current change was just an artificial tweak made to make things harder for pilots who should have just turned off their darn labels in the name of "realism" and proceeded into the target area with due caution was there threat of IR sams about. :)

[HiJack]

Never mind the fact that difficulty in obtaining lock can be attributed to factors calculated to add to the survivability of Ground Units in an effort to negate the inherent shortcomings of the Ground-AI and lessen the 'Turkey-Shoot' that was prevalent pre-patch.

 

Well it looks like we know who wanted ED to make the change then :D

[Moa]

IRL, neither have I, although I struggle to see the relevance herein.

My point being, have you used an IIR system in real life? Maybe, maybe not. But here is someone who has used one telling you how it was for them. Shame you are again appear unwilling to listen.

 

Then I'm sure you can appreciate the substantial difference between the IR system you utilized and the Mav seeker.....or are you saying the systems are comparable? In any event, as per the tracks above, units easily identifiable and sorted via the MAV Seeker in-SIM.

It's the same technology. I know, I've designed and built multi-wavelength imaging systems for scientific purposes. I know a huge amount about EO and CCD internals and operation (including specialist non-visible low and high wavelength operation) so if you think you know more than me, you don't. Sorry to be so blunt, I'm not here for a pissing contest I just want to head off any arguments about what you think you might know about advanced imaging technology. So please don't bother arguing this point.

 

Let's not go there, shall we :)

I really hope this was tongue-in-cheek, otherwise this appears to be one of the most arrogant insinuations I've seem on these boards - I hope I'm very mistaken.

 

The flaw being an 'inability' to obtain lock under any circumstances? Having had regard to a 'solution' posted, is it then still your contention that lock cannot be obtained at all when attempting to engage AAA/IR SAM's?

Yes. Can I say it any more simply than that. If I say it twice will that make any difference or will your mind remain closed to the possibility. I have watched cows and horses kilometers away through IIR from several thousand feet and they have a far lower signature than vehicles. IIR is so good you can see differential cooling through metal at closer ranges.

 

No-one's denying an issue exists........I just question where the blame is conveniently put.

Blame? Who gives a damn about blame? I became a much better developer when I learned to take my ego out of my development and not worrying about blame. Sure I am proud of my work but I realized being defensive doesn't help - an open mind is far more valuable. So, from this I surmise that you acknowledge the possibility of a problem but don't want it to be made your fault. Absolutely cool with me - it is not your fault. Can we move on now please to addressing the issue at hand? I simply would like the problem looked at and a work-around determined if possible.

 

 

Issue is simple really, isn't it? Lock against a AAA/IR SAM system cannot be easily obtained from stand-off range, resulting in a convenient kill and all of a sudden it's a bug......Never mind the fact that difficulty in obtaining lock can be attributed to factors calculated to add to the survivability of Ground Units in an effort to negate the inherent shortcomings of the Ground-AI and lessen the 'Turkey-Shoot' that was prevalent pre-patch.

Again, you are not listening. Earlier posters mentioned they cannot achieve a lock even at close range. Ignoring the fact that guiding the seeker it 'doglegs' (one fault), you can ground stabilize over your target with little clutter but when you lock the seeker it jumps to a random location off the target (second fault). In some situations amount of retries will put it back on target. Naturally, sometimes you can lock after a couple of attempts - which is why you haven't had riots so far.

 

Artificially degrading weapon systems is something we saw with the AMRAAM but I didn't know it was done to the AGM-65D as well. Isn't it bad enough that there is no player flyable Western aircraft that can launch HARMs (meanwhile the pet Su-25T can kill all manner of stuff from 60 km away) and the A-10 has to do SEAD with a Maverick. The Maverick is a devastating weapon against all targets, witness Gulf War I where it was indeed a 'Turkey Shoot' after the first few days. Big picture, at that time (80's - 90's) there were four thousand F-16s and F4 Wild Weasels to do the job for the Hog. It's bad enough to make the Hog do SEAD but to degrade the weapon system further is totally misguided. IMHO no product aspiring to be a 'simulation' should be doing this.

 

 

You've lost me - Why would you want to convert track to video?

To show you the fault as it appears for us. To show you that the seeker will not lock up a Tunguska at 2 nm when there are no other viable heat sources in the seeker's field of view. Clearly you think all of EDs customers are wrong and are unwilling to read and re-read the posts on this thread until to understand what they are trying to communicate to ED. Perhaps a video of the problem might help show you the issue, or give you an opportunity to state what you believe we're doing wrong (although I think even you finally might become convinced of the former).

 

[reply to another poster] BMPs are nothing. The ground fire from BTRs in this game is far worse. I fear BTRs far more than Shilka - there is something very wrong with that picture.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Moa

[159th_Viper]

....and a work-around determined if possible.....

 

There is one - read the posts ;)

 

 

 

Can we move on now please to addressing the issue at hand?

 

Oh by all means go ahead - your attitude unfortunately necessitates me from not taking any further part in this 'conversation'.......jolly good attempt at 'baiting' though :thumbup: