Harriers vs F-15's

[robmlufc]

You mean, like how it handles them for the Ka-50? ;)

 

You can get a Harrier, but why you want a plane that can only pretend to do A2A, and that's against 'lower capability threats', I dunno ;)

 

I was under the impression that all fixed wing aircraft in DCS stalled at 60kts? Could be wrong though!

 

Not sure what you would consider a lower capability threat? Harriers A2A record is up there with the best. 20-0 in the Falklands and usually kick ass at red flag and acmi ranges.FA2 has 'what is described as one of the most advanced pulse doppler radar systems in the world' ;)

[GGTharos]

You have one fixed wing aircraft in DCS ... so I guess you might be right about 'all'.

 

And the Harrier's A2A record is against aircraft that simply were not able to fight back. If they fought back, they'd just run out of fuel because they had EXACTLY the amount of fuel to go there and back (that's for the ones that were CAPABLE of A2A combat, and were in fact superior in it than the harrier ;) )

 

And no, the Harrier doesn't kick anyone's ass at Red Flags in A2A. It does the job it's supposed to do: Bomb trucking. If it ever encounters an air superiority fighter, it needs plenty of luck sprinkling or its toast.

[robmlufc]

Thers plenty of fixed wing aircraft in DCS, not all flyable.. and none of them can hover..

 

Dogfighting the Harrier will kick most fighters asses thanks to its agility, GR9 only has aim9s so BVR isnt its strong point :P The FA2 was a different matter though.. FA2 + AMRAAM = Awesomness.

 

Anyway, you said I could have a Harrier so run along and get making it ;)

[Python]

Typhoon

 

Im suprised this hasn't been added to the poll yet.... its just as likely as the other choices as nice as it would be....

 

You can get a Harrier, but why you want a plane that can only pretend to do A2A, and that's against 'lower capability threats', I dunno ;)

 

I would mainly want a Harrier for the flight model, who said it had to be an Air to air sim. give us scenarios which are real to life for the Harrier and maybe occasionally a "superior" dog fighter that is low on fuel... or not even, we'l show those chaps how well the little Harrier pretends to be a fighter ;) I think it would be a huge seller if it happened, has to include that mach loop training area though :music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

There is one fixed wing playable aircraft in DCS: The A-10C.

 

Thers plenty of fixed wing aircraft in DCS, not all flyable.. and none of them can hover..

 

The harrier has no agility. It is a high-wing-loading aircraft which limits its ability to turn, and the tiny radar and avionics you can cram into it is no match for a dedicated air to air fighter (or a multi-role that grew out of Air to Air).

 

Dogfighting the Harrier will kick most fighters asses thanks to its agility, GR9 only has aim9s so BVR isnt its strong point :P The FA2 was a different matter though.. FA2 + AMRAAM = Awesomness.

 

I'd rather occupy myself with making an F-15C ... or E ... I'm not terribly fond of targets ;)

 

Anyway, you said I could have a Harrier so run along and get making it ;)

[Callsign.Vega]

Thers plenty of fixed wing aircraft in DCS, not all flyable.. and none of them can hover..

 

Dogfighting the Harrier will kick most fighters asses thanks to its agility, GR9 only has aim9s so BVR isnt its strong point :P The FA2 was a different matter though.. FA2 + AMRAAM = Awesomness.

 

Anyway, you said I could have a Harrier so run along and get making it ;)

 

lol, you can't be serious. A Harrier would get squashed by any fighter made in the last 40 years.

[robmlufc]

 

The harrier has no agility. It is a high-wing-loading aircraft which limits its ability to turn, and the tiny radar and avionics you can cram into it is no match for a dedicated air to air fighter (or a multi-role that grew out of Air to Air).

)

 

 

 

Wow some of the guys at ED dont know much about aircraft, Im suprised at how many of you guys really think the Harrier is a bad dogfighter, everyone seems blinded by their faithful f15 and f18s. The Harriers anhedral wings actually increase its ability to turn by being inherently unstable, I doubt there is many aircraft that can roll as fast as a Harrier. Harrier already proved itself against fighters made in the last 40 years, shot down mirages for fun. Back to school for you guys!

[GGTharos]

You just shot yourself down ;)

 

The Mirage outperforms the Harrier in every way that matters when it comes to air to air combat, with the possible exception of thrust-to-weight at low altitude.

 

The reason the harrier got to shoot those Mirages down is EXACTLY because those mirages did not have a single DROP of fuel available for a fight. NOT A DROP. The distance they had to fly, and the fact they could not air refuel meant all they could do was fly the escort, turn around, and fly right back. If they engaged the afterburner even once = not making it back home.

 

Back to school for you I'm afraid.

 

And if you think that wing will overcome wing loading when it comes to turn performance ... oy ;)

Try informing yourself about some fighter fundamentals :)

 

Wow some of the guys at ED dont know much about aircraft, Im suprised at how many of you guys really think the Harrier is a bad dogfighter, everyone seems blinded by their faithful f15 and f18s. The Harriers anhedral wings actually increase its ability to turn by being inherently unstable, I doubt there is many aircraft that can roll as fast as a Harrier. Harrier already proved itself against fighters made in the last 40 years, shot down mirages for fun. Back to school for you guys!

[joey45]

GG is right..

 

The only thing the Harrier is good for in Ground Attack. The systems are still too classified, including the FA2 cos of....................................... AMRAAM

[bumfire]

 

The harrier has no agility. It is a high-wing-loading aircraft which limits its ability to turn, and the tiny radar and avionics you can cram into it is no match for a dedicated air to air fighter (or a multi-role that grew out of Air to Air).

 

 

Whilst I agree with you that a harrier is no match for a dedicated Air supremacy fighter and would invariably get its ass spanked in a fight, but I do disagree with you about the radar.

 

The Sea harrier, at the time had the most advanced Pulse Doppler radar available anywhere, ( the Blue Vixen Radar ) and that radar formed the basis for the CAPTOR radar in the Eurofighter.

 

So it wasnt as bad as you are making it out to be.

 

Although saying that, I do agree with everything else you said about the harrier.

[Druid_]

Hey boys before you knock the Harrier. Read up on VIFFing (turns like a b*tch)and have a quick read of Sharky Wards book about the falklands war. You might sing a different tune then. Crap radar though by todays standards, 25 miles if you are lucky.

 

At past Red Flag (Nellis AFB) exercises the Harrier has achieved a 75%+ success rate at low level close in ACM with F15's. Its a mud mover much like the a10c but a wee bit quicker.

 

Some facts for ya (GR9) , Empty 13000 lb, Max 31000, Thrust 25000. Oh and speed, over twice the a10c. Given the choice I'd rather be in a GR9 than an a10c. Gimme gimme.

[robmlufc]

Hey boys before you knock the Harrier. Read up on VIFFing (turns like a b*tch)and have a quick read of Sharky Wards book about the falklands war. You might sing a different tune then. Crap radar though by todays standards, 25 miles if you are lucky.

 

At past Red Flag (Nellis AFB) exercises the Harrier has achieved a 75%+ success rate at low level close in ACM with F15's. Its a mud mover much like the a10c but a wee bit quicker.

 

Some facts for ya (GR9) , Empty 13000 lb, Max 31000, Thrust 25000. Oh and speed, over twice the a10c. Given the choice I'd rather be in a GR9 than an a10c. Gimme gimme.

 

Im glad some people on here are seeing sense and dont just believe what they like about these silly US jets! :joystick:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtQRHm1CZdI captain slow takes one for a spin

[GGTharos]

What tune would I sing? The 'oh an Argentinian plane, let's point and shoot' tune? :)

 

VIFFing is last-ditch in a fight, and you'll be lucky if it works (or the pilot behind you has his fangs through the floorboards and didn't figure you were going to do it).

 

This 75% success figure is not something I have ever seen quoted by a real pilot, but hey - not like I have heard all the real pilot quotes. If Harriers, which are tasked with AIR TO GROUND duty in Red Flag, had A2A success against Agressor F-15's in low altitude ACM, you should think about what aircraft those F-15's are simulating before quoting a figure you know nothing about - we know that F-15 pilot are neither poorly trained, nor does the F-15 lack complete and utter superiority in every way that matters in air to air combat over the harrier.

 

Better yet, that might just be an A2G mission success figure 'in spite of' aggressor presence ;)

 

 

And before you think of continuing to press on with the harrier myth, here's a comment from a real F-16 pilot (note he is refering to US Marine Harriers probably):

 

I've fought the Harrier numerous times. In any A-A, BVR or WVR, it takes an enormous mistake by the Viper driver to lose. The idea that a Harrier can use its thrust vectoring to any measure of success vs a competent 3+ generation fighter is a myth. He will either be out of control or a sitting duck. To be fair, A-A is not their core competency. In the air to mud role the harrier is in some way far superior to the Viper (avionics and radar modes). The Marines take enormous pride in their abilities and knowledge in the CAS realm. From what I've seen their reputation in that regard is well earned.

 

 

Hey boys before you knock the Harrier. Read up on VIFFing (turns like a b*tch)and have a quick read of Sharky Wards book about the falklands war. You might sing a different tune then. Crap radar though by todays standards, 25 miles if you are lucky.

 

At past Red Flag (Nellis AFB) exercises the Harrier has achieved a 75%+ success rate at low level close in ACM with F15's. Its a mud mover much like the a10c but a wee bit quicker.

 

Some facts for ya (GR9) , Empty 13000 lb, Max 31000, Thrust 25000. Oh and speed, over twice the a10c. Given the choice I'd rather be in a GR9 than an a10c. Gimme gimme.

Edited October 13, 2010 by GGTharos

[robmlufc]

Its kinda amusing how you pretty much dismiss one persons figures on Harrier A2A performance and then expect us to have faith in yours. Comments I have heard from real Harrier pilots are mostly the opposite of your comments. 75% is impressive for an aircraft that lacks superiority in every way ;)

 

You can sing whichever tune works best for you, Harrier gets the job done, fact ;)

[GGTharos]

You don't need to have faith in what I say. All you need is to have some idea of the performance of the real jets which ... you don't.

 

Keep pretending your myth is a fact :)

 

Its kinda amusing how you pretty much dismiss one persons figures on Harrier A2A performance and then expect us to have faith in yours. Comments I have heard from real Harrier pilots are mostly the opposite of your comments. 75% is impressive for an aircraft that lacks superiority in every way ;)

 

You can sing whichever tune works best for you, Harrier gets the job done, fact ;)

[Eddie]

Guys, I have to join in and back up GG on this one, the harrier is not nor has it ever been a particularly good air to air platform. The FA2 was at best an average fleet defence aircraft.

 

In the CAS role however the GR9 is simply superb and in many areas superior to the A-10C, of course in other areas the hog is the better platform. To put it another way the Hog and the GR9 are the best CAS aircraft anywhere ever.

[GGTharos]

Thanks - and,

 

I agree, the Harrier can operate from worse airfield conditions and potentilly much closer to the front line - plus it goes faster, all of which have significant value for CAS. You real flyboys and the boots on ground have far better detailed reasons than the generalities we present here for it all :)

 

Guys, I have to join in and back up GG on this one, the harrier is not nor has it ever been a particularly good air to air platform. The FA2 was at best an average fleet defence aircraft.

 

In the CAS role however the GR9 is simply superb and in many areas superior to the A-10C, of course in other areas the hog is the better platform. To put it another way the Hog and the GR9 are the best CAS aircraft anywhere ever.

[Druid_]

By the way VIFF ing is not a last ditch manoevre. Sure it bleeds speed but less so that pulling hard G. It is used regularly in ACM training. As for GGs f16 comment, well... I mentioned f-15s and not f-16s. The figures for Red Flag I mentioned are from about 7 to 8 years ago. F-15s would prefer to engage BVR and would only occasionally engage in close quarters. Take your point on the F-15 and the a/c they were emulating though. My guess is Flankers which are no slouches.

 

GG, its not just the kit but the pilots that fly them too. IF you had the performance graphs of both aircraft types I'm sure you would find a window in which the Harrier would outperform and given that the F-15s have to come down to ground zero to engage maybe thats a good place to start looking first. Its how you exploit that window of course.

 

You wouldn't think the British Tornado would beat anything the U.S. can muster at Red FLag either, but they do and regularly at that. Us Brits might not have the kit but we do make up for it in other ways. After all it was a Brit exchange pilot who pretty much started Top Gun (you won't get them to admit that however).

 

By the way, the GR9 has more performance than an AV8B. But of course you already knew that. :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

F-15's aren't that far behind F-16's in close combat ... between those two, it's the altitude that decides who knocks whom out of the sky IIRC.

 

Thet F-15's 'prefer' BVR is true, but they're actually quite close to a flanker when it comes to high-speed sustained turns.

 

F-15's might also be emulating MiG-25's or Su-30's. In the case of emulating flankers, I'd be at least somewhat surprised that the Harriers didn't fall prey to archers, unless it was a guns only environment in which case the F-15 cannot emulate a flanker very well in the slow speed regime.

 

By the way VIFF ing is not a last ditch manoevre. Sure it bleeds speed but less so that pulling hard G. It is used regularly in ACM training. As for GGs f16 comment, well... I mentioned f-15s and not f-16s. The figures for Red Flag I mentioned are from about 7 to 8 years ago. F-15s would prefer to engage BVR and would only occasionally engage in close quarters. Take your point on the F-15 and the a/c they were emulating though. My guess is Flankers which are no slouches.

 

Yes, it is the pilots - but what exactly do you think is going on here when it is the F-15C pilots who are SPECIFICALLY and ONLY training for A2A, allegedly being beaten by pilots who do not?

 

And sure, I can tell you where the Harrier can outperform an eagle at slow speed, but I can also tell you exactly what the eagle pilot would do about it; this is no different than engaging a helicopter or a flanker trying to pull a cobra - this is all slow speed stuff.

 

GG, its not just the kit but the pilots that fly them too. IF you had the performance graphs of both aircraft types I'm sure you would find a window in which the Harrier would outperform and given that the F-15s have to come down to ground zero to engage maybe thats a good place to start looking first. Its how you exploit that window of course.

 

You can't make up for lack of kit, and that has been proven - unless you have insane numbers. Tornados have a particular task that they are very good at, and that is tactical strike and SEAD.

 

As for the GR9 having more performance - won't matter against a dedicated air to air fighter.

 

The trend is this:

 

A2A fighter -> Best at A2A, both pilot and plane

A2A fighter turned multirole -> Still best plane for A2A, but pilots might not have as much A2A training

Multirole Fighter -> Not going to be a good match against a contemporary fighter

Strike/Other Air to Ground fighter -> LOL.

 

It isn't that they cannot win, it is that they're going to lose majorly for every aircraft they shoot down.

 

Specialization is very, very important from both the 'kit' aspect and the pilot aspect, and it has been proven time and again.

 

This leaves out special circumstances, such as the falklands war, where a superior air to air fighter had neither the kit (no all-aspect missiles for the Mirages IIRC) nor the ability to maneuver due to fuel constaint (One Mirage pilot did so. He did not get shot down, but he was unable to make it home and IIRC he was not rescued either ... from the middle of the ocean).

 

Also again, keep in mind that in many cases the Red Flag aggressors present 'lower capability targets' most of the time, and no one really brings their 'a-kit' ;)

 

You wouldn't think the British Tornado would beat anything the U.S. can muster at Red FLag either, but they do and regularly at that. Us Brits might not have the kit but we do make up for it in other ways. After all it was a Brit exchange pilot who pretty much started Top Gun (you won't get them to admit that however).

 

By the way, the GR9 has more performance than an AV8B. But of course you already knew that. :smilewink:

[JG-1_Vogel]

Would like to add to this discussion that four FS.1 Sea Harriers engaged and shot down four F-15's in an exercise, much to the disgust of the Yanks. Was in Sharkey Ward's book "Sea Harriers over the Falklands" a good book :). The Harriers flew rings around the eagles and nailed them with Aim-9's. I don't know if the same thing could be repeated at LONG range... but our lads in the RAF fly looooow... so low you Yanks probably wouldn't dare follow lol. I would actually REALLY like to see how the F-22 does in a turning fight with a Harrier with it's vectored thrust, but off-boresight missiles kind of take the fun out of the whole game... not very sporting! I find it a bit funny that the big bad F-15 was owned by a little Harrier though.

[GGTharos]

You know, this keeps getting repeated ... so I'll say it once more. :)

 

The harrier couldn't fly rings around an F-15 is its life depended on it, which it does.

If you for a moment believe that an F-15 cannot kick a harrier's butt six ways to sunday at will, someone has duped you :)

If you hear that 'some harriers shot down some F-15's' something is up - there are question to ask.

If you think an F-15C won't follow of shoot anyone down low, there are real-life incidents where they already have done so, in fact IIRC there was a sparrow shot from an F-15 flying at 100' to a target at 50' ... but don't quote me on it, my memory might be swiss cheese at this point.

Further, F-15's have taken out low flying helicopters and MiG-25's on a landing roll (yep, high to low altitude shots against MiG-25's touching the ground. My understanding was that the Sparrows couldn't cope well with the situation and failed to directly hit the MiGs, but AMRAAMs and AIM-9's will likely do a somewhat better job in this situation ;) )

 

Raptors? The Harriers wouldn't even know what hit them, like everything else that gets to face a Raptor.

 

Would like to add to this discussion that four FS.1 Sea Harriers engaged and shot down four F-15's in an exercise, much to the disgust of the Yanks. Was in Sharkey Ward's book "Sea Harriers over the Falklands" a good book :). The Harriers flew rings around the eagles and nailed them with Aim-9's. I don't know if the same thing could be repeated at LONG range... but our lads in the RAF fly looooow... so low you Yanks probably wouldn't dare follow lol. I would actually REALLY like to see how the F-22 does in a turning fight with a Harrier with it's vectored thrust, but off-boresight missiles kind of take the fun out of the whole game... not very sporting! I find it a bit funny that the big bad F-15 was owned by a little Harrier though.

Edited October 13, 2010 by GGTharos

[JG-1_Vogel]

With respect GG, if a harrier can't fly rings around an Eagle how the heck did a seemingly crap lightweight fighter kick the proverbial s**t out of America's best jet at the time? Shame I'm not at home otherwise I'd type out the section where it describes the dogfight.

 

I don't doubt an F-15 could chew up a Harrier for breakfast, but you can say the same for the Eagle. It's dependant on the scenario, your making it sound like the F-15 is some God machine that will never be caught off guard by a cunning pilot. I know I was going a bit far with the F-22 comment, but it would be fun at least just to see how long it could match a rate of turn with one using its nozzles.

 

Your well informed GG I don't doubt that... but sometimes man just need to take a step back instead of getting the last word. Your always knocking folks down with facts and figures! Perhaps you should get in touch with Sharkey, I'm sure he would be delighted to explain the event to you! :)

[GGTharos]

LoneWolf, with being 'better informed' also comes an understand of air to air exercises.

 

People think they are just matches, but this is not the case; in many situations the side playing the 'bad guys' will let themselves be killed if the blue guys just do their work right.

 

What I said above stands. You might not be defenseless in a harrier, but you are WAY out of your element tangling with an air superiority fighter.

 

And yes, actually, the F-15 IS some sort of God machine ;) When it comes to air to air that is - just like the other so-called super-planes such as the Su-27, the MiG-31, the F-14. This is in fact the premise of the single-role aircraft: It WILL excell at its one role unless you significantly botch something in the design/production stange, and the F-15 suffers from neither of those problems.

 

I can find you pictures of F-16's and F-15's in the sights of A-10's ... so what will you tell me next, that F-15's and F-16's should be replaced by the cheaper A-10, since it can obviously kick their butt?

 

The Harrier is not an air to air aircraft. It was never conceived as such, and it is not aerodynamically built to carry out that mission. It is not incapable of fighting for itself, but that's like saying that an A-10 is not incapable of fighting for itself ... as opposed to saying 'An F-16 can fight for itself'.

 

If you want to take a single story of something that happened somewhere, some time and claim that it makes the Harrier all that, more power to you, but it is not ... representative of how things actually work. If you're flying a harrier vs. any dedicated fighter aircraft you're at a disadvantage, that's basically all there is to it, just from the 'aircraft' side.

 

With respect GG, if a harrier can't fly rings around an Eagle how the heck did a seemingly crap lightweight fighter kick the proverbial s**t out of America's best jet at the time? Shame I'm not at home otherwise I'd type out the section where it describes the dogfight.

 

I don't doubt an F-15 could chew up a Harrier for breakfast, but you can say the same for the Eagle. It's dependant on the scenario, your making it sound like the F-15 is some God machine that will never be caught off guard by a cunning pilot. I know I was going a bit far with the F-22 comment, but it would be fun at least just to see how long it could match a rate of turn with one using its nozzles.

 

Your well informed GG I don't doubt that... but sometimes man just need to take a step back instead of getting the last word. Your always knocking folks down with facts and figures! Perhaps you should get in touch with Sharkey, I'm sure he would be delighted to explain the event to you! :)

[robmlufc]

Theres a good story that 801 Sqn pilots will tell you about their last tactical flight, 5 FA2's against 4 GR4s, 2 Jags and 5 5 F15s... all enemy aircraft destroyed. I know that GG will have an intelligent excuse for the Eagles demise but im happy in the knowledge that the Harrier can kick ass.

 

Hey ED, get the Harrier made so we can put all this to the ultimate test ;)

[Python]

Hey ED, get the Harrier made so we can put all this to the ultimate test ;)

 

In fairness we'l need a DCS standard F-15 for that also.... only then will the keyboard war end and the real fun start, Get on it GG :)