RAF/RN Navy Harriers binned off

[crazyeddie]

Sadly UK Plc is broke ... we have been in decline for years and this review was the last straw in a long line of Political incompetence and posturing by the various services to retain something/anything (You pick the word that best suits).

 

Hardly joined up thinking from any of them, but then few of our political leaders have ever served in anything more dangerous than the Scouts or served any ideology other than their personal greed.

 

Rant over, back to flying ....

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Sad to hear about Nimrod MRA4. I worked at RR for a while on the software for its BR710 engines.

[bumfire]

Sad to hear about Nimrod MRA4. I worked at RR for a while on the software for its BR710 engines.

 

Yup, Sad indeed.

 

The Nimrod MRA4 would of been a world beater ( yet again :) ) when it came into service, basically a brand new aircraft albeit made from old airframes, but as you are probably aware a good part of it was brand new.

 

It would of been top of its class had it not got binned and it should of proudly provided service for the UK for atleast another 20-30 years.

 

I find it hard to believe that these cuts were made with any sort of thorough examination, I think whoever did it, just closed their eyes and took a pen and made marks on a piece of paper that had a list of things, where those marks were made related to what gets cut. I really believe somethign stupid like that was done.

 

I really forsee a snap election happening next year, especially when all these cuts, not just military but also civil cuts start to hit home, then all those numptys who voted Conservative will be wishing they didnt.

 

Especially when the rich lot see this; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11623885

 

The Filthy Rich Conservative voting inbreds will be cursing the very day they voted to get rid of Labour, although both parties are just as bad as one another, but I think at this stage in the game it was better to stay with the devil you know, rather than the devil you dont. Atleast until things smoothed out a touch.

 

Cyclops wasnt all that bad now I come to think of it, but then again he did kinda remind me of a :pirate:

[robmlufc]

I don't think labour would have been that bad, just desperately needed a new leader. The cuts have had no thought put into them at all, for Cameron to say that the tonka is more versatile than the Harrier is ridiculous. Tonka is also 7 times more expensive than the Harrier....is that really good value for money? I think it basically came down to the RAF and RN being childish and saying 'well you are getting your carriers so we are keeping our tornados!'

 

As for Nimrod...crazy...

[tflash]

From Aviationweek:

 

"Axing Nimrod was difficult, defense officials say, and retiring Sentinel was rationalized by noting that future fighters, such as the F-35, will have sophisticated sensors that will allow those roles to be shifted away from dedicated assets." see http://tinyurl.com/2w7xyqy

 

I would properly describe my feelings about this absolute folly I would be strongly at odds with forum rules.

 

Incredible also how this F-35 rethoric is poisoning every, but then really every discussion about military aviation. It truly becomes time that one gets operational so that all these fanboys will come to understand it is just an aircraft, not the new messiah.

[Eddie]

I for Cameron to say that the tonka is more versatile than the Harrier is ridiculous.

 

Really? So saying an aircraft that can perform CAS, Interdiction, SEAD, and strike mission is more versatile than an aircraft that can only perform CAS and interdiction missions is crazy. Sound perfectly sensible to me.

 

Not to mention the fact that the Tornado force is currently out here in Afghan doing just as good a job as the Harrier force did. It makes far more sense to keep a fleet of aircraft which is larger and can therefore sustain the current tempo of operations better than a small force which has only just recovered from it's stint in the desert.

 

There are also far more spares for the Tornado force than for Harrier, due to the retirement of the F3 which again leads itself to better sustainability over the Harrier.

 

As for the Nimrod, yeah it'd be useful, but when it's a choice of paying for an ISTAR aircraft or fighter aircraft when much of the useful role of said ISTAR aircraft can be carried out by other platforms now in service I know what I'd chose. And Kinloss/Lossie are not certain to close, in the long term they may well be required to house the Army units returning from Germany.

 

And as for the whole Labour v Conservative arguement, this is not the place for a political discussion, so I'll keep my views to myself. Needless to say they don't agree which most of those voiced in this thread.

 

Of course, I wouldn't say I agree with, or am happy about everything coming out of the SDSR afterall it looks like I may well have to find myself another form of emplyment in around 18 months. But it could have been alot worse. I am however thankful that desisions such as these are not made by flight simmers and other computer gamers who voice their opinions on various forums.

[tflash]

Are you a Tonka driver Eddie ;-)

 

We are not making decisions, but are entitled to an opinion no? Just take it for what it is. I know that Tornado with Litening + Raptor pod has some serious ISR to offer, and indeed F-35 will have impressive A2G radar modes. But neither aircraft is designed to loiter over large areas for hours and doesn't have the crew onboard to really analyse "the normal" to identify "the abnormal" like a REAL ISTAR asset, be it MRA4 or Sentinel would do.

 

I'm not even sure they will buy F-35 in sufficient numbers to be a relevant force at all, let alone to take on the role of ISTAR aircraft that are meant to be aloft 24/7.

 

So yes, for an outsider SDSR seems questionable enough to risk a forum discussion or a chat in the pub. It's nothing more than that.

[robmlufc]

A smaller Harrier fleet can be just as effective due to its serviceability rate compared to tonka. However,I may have to change my fanboyism soon as it looks like I'm off to marham or coningsby within the next 6 months. 'What do you mean it can't hover???' :)

Edited November 2, 2010 by robmlufc

[tflash]

More about Post-Nimrod plans in Aviationweek: http://tinyurl.com/3955nwo

[L4key]

I really forsee a snap election happening next year, especially when all these cuts, not just military but also civil cuts start to hit home, then all those numptys who voted Conservative will be wishing they didnt.

 

Especially when the rich lot see this; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11623885

 

The Filthy Rich Conservative voting inbreds will be cursing the very day they voted to get rid of Labour, although both parties are just as bad as one another, but I think at this stage in the game it was better to stay with the devil you know, rather than the devil you dont. Atleast until things smoothed out a touch.

 

Mate, stop with the political crap. It's embarrassing.

 

Your points on topic are actually very interesting and add to the discussion why spoil it showing a small minded political bias???

[tflash]

Correct!

 

Back to the discussion: ASTOR will be withdrawn when Afghan ops end. The idea is that this kind of ISTAR can be performed by other assets. I fail to see which those are. ASTOR can loiter at high altitude (50.000 feet) for hours, and can look deep inside Afghan valleys with its SAR and MTI sensors. So almost same height/performance as the late and deplored Canberra PR.9, but with much more intelligent sensors.

 

The Sentinel R1 is brand new and offers a capability many would like to have (I could imagine both Russia and Georgia to want such an asset!). Binning this aircraft early escapes me: maybe there is no real use for that asset in the European theatre? Or do they have a foreign buyer for it? Or do they feel you cannot credibly defend such an aircraft against A2A threats in a more conventional/balanced conflict?

 

The whole idea that F-35 (again) is supposed to replace this seems to me as realistic as a coalition with Martians. OK, its AESA has a SAR capability, but then again this is about as much as saying that it also has wings and can fly.

Edited November 6, 2010 by tflash
Oops: I realize original thread is only about the Harriers, so sorry for hijack!

[Eddie]

Correct!

 

Back to the discussion: ASTOR will be withdrawn when Afghan ops end. The idea is that this kind of ISTAR can be performed by other assets. I fail to see which those are. ASTOR can loiter at high altitude (50.000 feet) for hours, and can look deep inside Afghan valleys with its SAR and MTI sensors. So almost same height/performance as the late and deplored Canberra PR.9, but with much more intelligent sensors.

 

The Sentinel R1 is brand new and offers a capability many would like to have (I could imagine both Russia and Georgia to want such an asset!). Binning this aircraft early escapes me: maybe there is no real use for that asset in the European theatre? Or do they have a foreign buyer for it? Or do they feel you cannot credibly defend such an aircraft against A2A threats in a more conventional/balanced conflict?

 

The whole idea that F-35 (again) is supposed to replace this seems to me as realistic as a coalition with Martians. OK, its AESA has a SAR capability, but then again this is about as much as saying that it also has wings and can fly.

 

Simple really, we don't own them. They are leased, so we just give them back. The original role of the ASTOR was tracking large groups of armour/vehicles of formed military forces, a role which cannot be justified in the current world climate. Both the Sentinel R1 and Shadow R1 were a great idea 10 - 15 years ago, but now they are just another drain on funds which are needed to pay for other aircraft.

 

With most combat actions in the future likely to be COIN ops or small scale conflicts, systems designed to fight cold war scenarios just can't be justified. Especially when it could be the choice of and ISTAR aircraft or a few more tankers/fighters which would be useful in either a low or high intensity conflict.

 

A large proportion of the ISTAR role can be carried out by Reaper/Predator or other UAVs, as well as fast jets carrying Raptor etc. The jobs only the Nimrod/Sentinel/Shadow could carry out are, for the most part, not really essential capabilities anyway.

[tflash]

Simple really, we don't own them. They are leased, so we just give them back.

 

That already explains a lot indeed! Thanks for info.

[tflash]

On the Nimrod swap by Rivet Joint: http://bit.ly/c2FCGE

[bumfire]

Mate, stop with the political crap. It's embarrassing.

 

Your points on topic are actually very interesting and add to the discussion why spoil it showing a small minded political bias???

 

 

Ahahaa, a rich conservative voter crawls out of the woodwork :lol:

[pyates2104]

The nimrods provided more of a service to the UK than the harriers ever did.

 

The harriers going is sad, but the Nimrods is a disaster, they could of EASILY found money to keep them, just because we are in debt, it doesnt mean to say that everything has to be cut.

 

The nimrods going, doesnt just affect the nimrods, but it is affecting thousands of people in that commmunity who supported that airbase, as the airbase is likely to get closed now, throwing thousands upon thousands of people in that area onto the dole, in that area their is no other real employment oppertunities, so the nimrod going has a deeper effect than just the planes not flying.

 

This government is having a kneejerk reaction and are cutting alot of things that will not produce any meaningful savings in the longterm, which should be the main focus, saving a few billion once may sound great, but in a couple of years they will be back to square one, they should of looked further ahead and cut things that would continue to save money 10-20 years into the future instead of just 5.

 

They could of actually did a proper defense review instead of the half hearted effort that they put in and claimed it to be a defense review.

 

Seriosuly, the Nimrod, the MK4 and the previous marks before it was invaluable to the UK, it was a great intelligence gathering platform, weapons platform, surveillance platform, search and rescue platform and was used daily in the UK around our shores and elsewhere in the world, not on traning missions like the harriers, but earning its actual pay nearly every single day.

 

Now the Uk is left without a credible platform for ASR, Surveillance and intel gathering unless you want to count the Merlin helo's which are far less capable.

 

I dont care who is to blame for wasting the cash, because the cons are just as bad as labour were, but a proper defence review would of been nice instead of a kneejerk reaction that will be felt for years and will in all likelihood take us back to square one within a few years.

 

Ok things have to be cut and our belts have to be tightened, but they could of found better ways to do it.

 

The new Nimrod project has been a disaster from the start. It's laterally a "the wings don't fit scenario" caused by bad project management, incompetent procurement and a bias toward UK suppliers. If you want to piss money against the wall for no outcome, then this was the project for you. (A bit like the Nimrod AEW project that got canned).

 

The economic truths are harsh. Large projects had to be cut, projects that would cost more to cut than to keep had to be continued (Aircraft carriers) The Nimrod was coming to the end of it's usable life span. Job losses are inevitable during defense cuts, nothing is forever any more.

 

If you think there are better ways to cut the sums of money needed, why don't you suggest them? I for one think the approach was balanced and well thought out.

[tflash]

Indeed the Nimrod MRA4 was to many observers a bogus idea. Don't forget we are talking about the airframe of the Comet, one of the first jet airliners with a not so unspoken history of its own.

 

The reason why - after it soon emerged the new wings didn't really fit in the first place - they finally had to ditch this 3 billion project is that unfortunately an intrinsic security hasard with the airframe has emerged making the fleet no longer airworthy.

 

So this is in the end not even a political decision: the aircraft just isn't safe to fly. Period.

 

Britain buys into the Rivet Joint, and hopefully will this wey acquire a very sophisticated platform.

[bumfire]

I agree with you that the nimrods were all different shapes and sizes due to the ridiculous way that they were made to start with, hence the difficulty upgrading them with new wings and such, but once upgraded they would of lasted a good 30 years, so end of life it was not. The upgrade was to keep them flying and give them new abilities, so it wasnt exactly what you would call end of life.

 

Pissing money up the wall for no outcome ? yes, no outcome NOW since it got binned, if it hadnt got binned their would of been an outcome.

 

Every big military project is out of budget and late, the nimrod being one, so you cant exactly pick the nimrod out of them all and say, its late and your pouring money into it, it has to be cut, because every other project works like that.

 

Cut's have to be made, sure they do, but getting rid of the nimrod was a mistake for the UK, the Commander of their base admitted as much and so has other high ranking RAF officials.

 

Ok certain aspects of what it can do can and will now be filled by other aircraft, but not all of its capabilities can be filled by other AC, and losing the plane is just the tip of the iceberg, because the bases could now close, ( we know that the bases "could" be used for troops coming back from Germany, but thats looking less likely as each day passes, hopefully the bases dont close and some use can be found for them ) the thousands of civilian and military workers who work on the bases will be out of a job, and in that area where the base is, their is no other prospects for work other than the base.

 

As I said, cuts have to and are being made, but their must be better ways of doing it, I could suggest some, but what good will they do other than telling a forum what I think would of been better to cut ? its not going to change the Gov's mind, its not gunna get the nimrods back flying again, its not gunna put planes on a carrier within 10 years, so their is no point in me saying, "they should of cut this and that, but kept this and that" because it wont do anything.

 

All I am saying is, the nimrod was a stupid thing to cut if they didnt have a replacement for it, as I am not sure if the majority of people here will understand exactly how versatile the nimrod actually is at doing its job. It doesnt have to be in a warzone to be doing its job and earning a living.

 

Infact everyday it was doing a vital job guarding the UK coastline and photographing every single ship that was in our sea's and gathering intel, also it provides Air Sea Rescue out in the atlantic and north sea where helicopters just cannot get to in most cases, it hunted subs far from land where helicopters cant get to, infact it does a helluva job just around our coast.

 

I am all for binning it "IF" their is something viable that can replace it, whether that be a cheap prop plane of some kind or something jet based, but something needs to replace it.

 

It will all be ok until something major happens, example a passenger liner sinks in the atlantic where its too far for helo's and rescue ships are 2-3 or more days out, only then will there be a stink about why they got binned and why they or a replacement needs to be brought back into service.

 

Also, a nimrod was co-ordinating the rescue operation for piper alpha when it exploded, it was on scene as soon as possible and it was said that without the nimrod, co-ordinating the rescue operation would of been extremely hard if not virtually impossible, but the addition of the nimrod made it so much easier to co-ordinate the rescue attempt and the sweep up operation looking for bodies and survivors in the following days.

 

I personally couldnt careless if the nimrods fly again, i wont shed a tear I wont stay awake at nights wondering why, as they do nothing for me personally, but it would of been nice had they survived the cut as they are an extremely versatile and valuable aircraft.

 

Thats just my point of view, others may think differently, but thats what I think.

[bumfire]

Indeed the Nimrod MRA4 was to many observers a bogus idea. Don't forget we are talking about the airframe of the Comet, one of the first jet airliners with a not so unspoken history of its own.

 

The reason why - after it soon emerged the new wings didn't really fit in the first place - they finally had to ditch this 3 billion project is that unfortunately an intrinsic security hasard with the airframe has emerged making the fleet no longer airworthy.

 

So this is in the end not even a political decision: the aircraft just isn't safe to fly. Period.

 

Britain buys into the Rivet Joint, and hopefully will this wey acquire a very sophisticated platform.

 

I have a whole airbase on my doorstep saying differently.

[robmlufc]

I worked at Woodford on Nimrod for a bit earlier this year, been on Harriers for the past 5 years. A lot of awesome skilled blokes and lasses out of work.

[tflash]

Well, I'm certainly not going to dispute these sad facts: it is just heartbreaking how thousands of devoted people's carreers are wrecked.

[bumfire]

Well, I'm certainly not going to dispute these sad facts: it is just heartbreaking how thousands of devoted people's carreers are wrecked.

 

Amen :(

[pyates2104]

Well, I'm certainly not going to dispute these sad facts: it is just heartbreaking how thousands of devoted people's carreers are wrecked.

 

 

The "Passing" of an Aircraft type is always a sad occasion, especially one that has served for so long. The "Passing" of an airbase is equally sad and does effect jobs and prosperity in the area. This is not new however and is not restricted to these latest round of cuts. I don't think anybody really thought that with the amount of savings needed, some aircraft and bases would not have to go. Nimrod is basically life ex and was a prime candidate. Together with the disaster ridden upgrade program which was out of control even by MOD standards, I totally understand the decision.

[robmlufc]

Big Harrier flypast over Cottesmore on Dec 15th bringing Harrier flying operations to an end, should be good if theres any spotters in the area looking for a few final pics.

 

No word yet if any will be kept for displays, highly doubt it though given the financial bias to the defense review.

[Namenlos Ein]

Tears as last Harrier jets leave Ark Royal