Reality Vs Playability and the effect in Multiplay

[OGREMAN]

I have chewed the fat over this for the last couple of years and I simply have to put the case for modified or reduced reality when your server is seeking to provide a adverserial multiplayer service....

 

The need to put this view has been brought about by the developments that have ensued as a result of the "improved" missle performance as vigerously campaigned for by the fans of the F15 and now represented in Flaming Cliffs2. There is little doubt that changes to the perfomance of all the Air to Air missiles has left a single aircraft type with complete dominance of the virtual airspace in FC2. Further there is no doubt that these "improvements" are more representative of REALITY.

 

REALITY SUCKS

That said, lets consider what effect this has had on multiplayer gameplay, back in the days of LOFC-1.1 I recall that it was quite common for air battle events to be staged where literally more that 100 pilots would fly and compete in the same virtual airspace in simulated West Vs East air combat.

 

This could no longer happen because a single Aircraft type dominates the Air to Air arena making competative play nearly impossible without placing an equal number of that aicraft on each side. Even if that was to happen those people who are dedicated fans of other Aircraft types now no longer have any realistic expectation of competing against that single aircraft. The end result ..... where there was once a lively community enjoying immersive gameplay for all Air to Air combatants there is now a "monoculture". Many very capable Virtual pilots have left the public community of LOFC because in order to satisfy a demand for reality at any cost.... they must die frquently or fly an aircraft that for them has absolutely NO APPEAL.

 

I conclude that the goal of pure reality, is only beneficial to the gaming experience when all players are on the same side or the balance of potency is identical ie "monoculture".

Q- Who would play a game of chess where only the black player has a full set of pieces?

Furtermore I conclude that the move to "reality mod in FC1.12a" and the FC2 have not served to promote community but instead driven us all apart to our more fractured and reduced gameplay.

[Boberro]

I feel many pages again :)

 

About game and people who abandoned LO - it is only their problem and they must get over it. Wanna simple game? Go to HAWX :)

Few people who I know shouted "reality", but when LO2 came a bit closer to it, they ran away cause their were used to fly on overrated planes in LO1 :D

LO with number 2 became more friendly and "adult" than it had been earlier.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Boberro

[Case]

...I simply have to put the case for modified or reduced reality when your server is seeking to provide a adverserial multiplayer service....

So, what are you proposing?

[159th_Viper]

.....This could no longer happen because a single Aircraft type dominates the Air to Air arena making competative play nearly impossible without placing an equal number of that aicraft on each side....

 

Hogwash........

 

 

 

Just had a quick look at the 51st Squadron's Air-to Air stats for the month of December 2010. Having regard to the leader-board and the top ten players to date for December, the Airframe statistics are as follows:

 

7 out of the top ten players (2;3;4;6;8;9;10) - Russian Birds

 

3 out of the top ten players (1;5;7) - F15

 

What does that tell you?

[sobek]

There's this saying that only a fool blames his tools...

[GGTharos]

I have chewed the fat over this for the last couple of years and I simply have to put the case for modified or reduced reality when your server is seeking to provide a adverserial multiplayer service....

 

Yeah, I've heard people complain - those who do for legitimate reasons (they actually get it) and those who just whine because they are unable to adapt their tactics to a slightly more realistic method of combat ( ... like not flying straight at your bandit when the missiles are zipping around).

 

The need to put this view has been brought about by the developments that have ensued as a result of the "improved" missle performance as vigerously campaigned for by the fans of the F15 and now represented in Flaming Cliffs2. There is little doubt that changes to the perfomance of all the Air to Air missiles has left a single aircraft type with complete dominance of the virtual airspace in FC2. Further there is no doubt that these "improvements" are more representative of REALITY.

 

REALITY SUCKS

That said, lets consider what effect this has had on multiplayer gameplay, back in the days of LOFC-1.1 I recall that it was quite common for air battle events to be staged where literally more that 100 pilots would fly and compete in the same virtual airspace in simulated West Vs East air combat.

 

I don't see that that it's any different now. Furthermore, FC2 only inches closer to, but does not represent just how really nasty it would be to run into an F-15C with anything less than a Su-30/MiG-29SMT2 or better. I'll put it this way: You still have it easy. The tactics to deal with anything that's thrown at you on a 1v1 basis are easily understood and executed by anyone with a bit of useful memory and moderate degree of skill, and a bit of brainpower to aid in understanding what they are doing and why.

 

This could no longer happen because a single Aircraft type dominates the Air to Air arena making competative play nearly impossible without placing an equal number of that aicraft on each side. Even if that was to happen those people who are dedicated fans of other Aircraft types now no longer have any realistic expectation of competing against that single aircraft. The end result ..... where there was once a lively community enjoying immersive gameplay for all Air to Air combatants there is now a "monoculture". Many very capable Virtual pilots have left the public community of LOFC because in order to satisfy a demand for reality at any cost.... they must die frquently or fly an aircraft that for them has absolutely NO APPEAL.

 

My response to this, and to echo Viper ... learn to fight against a slightly more realistic foe. Really, it isn't that hard. I've dodged AMRAAMs and R-77s, and when I get myself into a situation where I screwed up, they kill me most of the time. And this is EXACTLY what should happen. This is how air combat works. Want something else? Want ninja-dodging? HAWX is for you. As a bonus, there is no legitimate whining about realism there either, and it's all fair.

 

I conclude that the goal of pure reality, is only beneficial to the gaming experience when all players are on the same side or the balance of potency is identical ie "monoculture".

Q- Who would play a game of chess where only the black player has a full set of pieces?

Furtermore I conclude that the move to "reality mod in FC1.12a" and the FC2 have not served to promote community but instead driven us all apart to our more fractured and reduced gameplay.

 

Your conclusions seem to fall on their face given that people still eh - fly? A bunch of squads fly very actively. A number of people have transitioned to DCS modules which has reduced the size of the FC2 community, but that's to be expected. Not everyone is into air-to-air, and DCS is absolutely spifferrific.

 

In conclusion, I think you should learn to control your aircraft, learn how to combat an incoming missile, and learn how to work in a team. 95% of online players cannot do any one of those things, or at best they can pull half-hearted efforts at those.

[104th_Crunch]

Hi Ogreman,

 

You raise some valid points and concerns. They have for sure have been discussed here before. Here is my opinion on this. In no way at all would I want to see reality altered to better match different jet types. Really, I doubt we will see this happen anyway as the focus is on the realism of DCS, and when a DCS fighter graces us, I doubt that it will get gimped so that it is more evenly matched against another fighter type. While we all may have different preferences, first and foremost we are in the simulation genre. We are here to simulate reality in terms of the presented aircraft. While I don?t mind personally if somethings are not modeled, ex. I don?t want to spend 1 hour getting into my flight suit while my jet is prepped ☺, whatever is modeled I hope to be modeled as accurately as possible.

 

I started online with ED?s product in FC 1.12. I heard that in versions before FC 1.12 the AIM-120 was more powerful. Online complaining persuaded ED to gimp the 120. Then people complained after that the performance of the 120 was inaccurate. Now in FC2 we are back to a more capable 120 lol!!!

 

Saying all this, I think you are right Ogre in that it can be no fun for ex. flying a MiG and getting bounced by F-15s continually, but I think It is harder but not impossible. Those that want a challenge can appreciate it. If one does not appreciate the difficulty, then why not learn the F-15? I am not a fanboy, I like any jet and appreciate their differences. *I think the answer, however, is NOT to provide balance by altering realism. It goes against what a simulator is all about. The balance must come from mission design and other means. Think the F-15 is too strong? Make a mission without them. Have Su and MiG only. Problem solved! Of course this may not be popular but totally possible.

 

The other thing would be weapon restrictions. I think it?s why ED provided the AIM-120B and C. You could limit F-15s to a max of 4 AIM-120B for example. The problem is, THERE IS NO BUILT IN CAPABILITY *FOR A SERVER TO ENFORCE CUSTOMIZED WEAPON LOADOUTS. I capitalize this because I believe it to be a major fault. Sure, we can enforce the default payloads that ED provided by using integrity checks, but that means the A2G guys can?t customize the loadouts and would blow. A server could also theoretically create custom loadouts, get all clients to download the customization, then enforce that all players use the customization by integrity checks, but then you force a download on the client. The client would also have to change his config for others servers. A massive PITA. Still, IMO only, I think weapon restrictions is an easy way to help provide some balance WITHOUT effecting realism.

 

Maybe, a large number of servers could agree on customized loadouts, then clients could all download a standardized file for a majority of servers. I don?t think this is likely though and still a major pain. I wish we could have the option on the server to enforce customized loadouts as an option. Problem solved.

 

Posted using my Blackberry. Excuse the errors

Edited December 3, 2010 by Crunch

[RIPTIDE]

Hogwash........

 

 

 

Just had a quick look at the 51st Squadron's Air-to Air stats for the month of December 2010. Having regard to the leader-board and the top ten players to date for December, the Airframe statistics are as follows:

 

7 out of the top ten players (2;3;4;6;8;9;10) - Russian Birds

 

3 out of the top ten players (1;5;7) - F15

 

What does that tell you?

 

Bad choice. WHy pick December? Since we're only a couple of days in. Try November. Better yet, compare all of the year. Also you'd be better comparing k/d to discount the stat whores.

[Case]

Bad choice. WHy pick December? Since we're only a couple of days in. Try November. Better yet, compare all of the year. Also you'd be better comparing k/d to discount the stat whores.

 

Better yet, check this: http://www.51st.org/stats/misc.php?pid=10all

 

I must warn everyone that tries to draw conclusions based on these diagrams, as mission design is biasing these numbers.

 

For example, on the 51st server we have:

• F-15C's only on one side
  
• MiG-29S's not present in all missions
  
• Not all planes available in the same numbers
  
• Only had one 80's week so far
  
• etc...
  

[Cali]

Learn how to use your jet and it's weapons. The problem is that people go charging head first into a TWSed 120 headshot and cry about it. I and many other have flown Russian jets against F-15's and have done very good. Learn tactics, learn your weapons and your enemies weapons. If servers change too much, all they are going to do is make players go elsewhere. The 51st server is a good example of how to set up missions, they have a good mix for everything.

 

Look at what Case has done with the missile stats, you can see who spams missiles and who fires them in the better situations. It all boils down to tactics and how you play. Some play just to have fun, while others play to be good.

[GGTharos]

I like what you've done with that ... the sortie and hour stats also help make interesting determinations. Good work!

 

Better yet, check this: http://www.51st.org/stats/misc.php?pid=10all

 

I must warn everyone that tries to draw conclusions based on these diagrams, as mission design is biasing these numbers.

 

For example, on the 51st server we have:

• F-15C's only on one side
  
• MiG-29S's not present in all missions
  
• Not all planes available in the same numbers
  
• Only had one 80's week so far
  
• etc...
  

[GGTharos]

Pardon the dissent:

 

No, he does not.

 

His complaint really boils down to:

 

He can't just simply fly low and pop chaff and dodge everything like in 1.12.

He can't just simply ignore high-flying planes like he did in 1.12 because they'll actually hit you if you keep flying straight at them

He can't just simply ignore missiles because they um - hit stuff now.

He can't just simply sniff around the ground and LOL at everything above him because the high plane gets EFFECTIVE longer range.

He can't just simply sniff the ground and LOL at everything above him because flying low self-jams the radar and the guy above gets more EFFECTIVE detection range.

 

It isn't a matter of valid concerns. It is a matter of not wanting to simulate air combat when it isn't convenient for him.

 

You have the weaker plane? Flipping deal with it like you're supposed to. Fly efficiently, use the notch, quit relying on old FC1.12 tactics which were not realistic.

 

That's my rant :P

 

 

Hi Ogreman,

 

You raise some valid points and concerns.

[RIPTIDE]

Pardon the dissent:

 

No, he does not.

 

His complaint really boils down to:

 

He can't just simply fly low and pop chaff and dodge everything like in 1.12.

He can't just simply ignore high-flying planes like he did in 1.12 because they'll actually hit you if you keep flying straight at them

He can't just simply ignore missiles because they um - hit stuff now.

He can't just simply sniff around the ground and LOL at everything above him because the high plane gets EFFECTIVE longer range.

He can't just simply sniff the ground and LOL at everything above him because flying low self-jams the radar and the guy above gets more EFFECTIVE detection range.

 

It isn't a matter of valid concerns. It is a matter of not wanting to simulate air combat when it isn't convenient for him.

 

You have the weaker plane? Flipping deal with it like you're supposed to. Fly efficiently, use the notch, quit relying on old FC1.12 tactics which were not realistic.

 

That's my rant :P

One point... and I know we've discussed this before (remmeber the screenshot?) but this low alt. self jam lark.. I'm not sure that's even present. And if it is, its effects are so small that it's not even worthy of a line.

[GGTharos]

It is, and it is IMHO most noticeable with the MiG ... at least last I checked, which was admittedly a long time ago. Detection vs. a 40000' F-15 was about 25nm under those conditions, at which point the F-15 was starting its A-Pole turn.

 

Not hard to defeat that missile, but if you're planning on keeping your nose pointed at that F-15, well... :P

 

Otherwise, you're quite right - the self-jamming seems to equalize against look-down range reduction which is a bit ... eh.

 

One point... and I know we've discussed this before (remmeber the screenshot?) but this low alt. self jam lark.. I'm not sure that's even present. And if it is, its effects are so small that it's not even worthy of a line.

[159th_Viper]

**Hypothetical scenario**

 

2016

 

DCS: Fast-Jet Amerikanski vs DCS: Fast-Jet Russki

 

 

O.M.F.G. I can just imagine the moans already........:crazy:

 

 

For what it's worth.........Please, as real as it gets! Adapt or Dye, but please don't moan :P

[OGREMAN]

Hi CASE ... I suppose that what I am trying to say is the solution to better gameplay with FC2 lies in the hands of the mission designer.... and that there is no pleasure (its no fun) being in an aircraft that is designed to lose the fight in the name of reality.....

Edited December 3, 2010 by OGREMAN
clarity

[Sov13t]

**Hypothetical scenario**

 

2016

 

DCS: Fast-Jet Amerikanski vs DCS: Fast-Jet Russki

 

 

O.M.F.G. I can just imagine the moans already........:crazy:

 

Doesn't 159th fly Russian jets?

[159th_Viper]

Doesn't 159th fly Russian jets?

 

We do - and we don't moan :thumbup:

[Case]

Hi CASE ... I suppose that what I am trying to say is the solution to better gameplay with FC2 lies in the hands of the mission designer....

Of this I am very aware!

 

..and that there is no pleasure (its no fun) being in an aircraft that is designed to lose the fight in the name of reality.....

 

Is this post/thread is related to your recent flight on our server, where we had a mission with F-15C's/MiG-29G's on one side and Su-27's/Su-33's/MiG-29A's on the other?

[RIPTIDE]

We do - and we don't moan :thumbup:

There's a lesson there.

[EtherealN]

Adapt or Dye

 

Adapt or be colorful? :D

 

But yeah, basically, if I were to select a plane in FC2 that is emotionally my favourite, it would be the Su-25... err... okey, so for fighters, it would be the MiG-29. I love that thing to bits and grew up with models of it. But it quite simply isn't as good as the F-15 (which is what I fly in the squad), but I still occassionally pick it up just to "feel it", and not least admire it's good looks. And I wouldn't mind flying it as an aggressor for the squadron when I'm trained well enough for such a duty - but it just isn't as "good" as the F-15.

 

But there's a caveat to that "good" thing - the big thing as far as FC2 goes is that it's not as good as the F-15 at F-15 tactics. That is what I think is the biggest problem for the most people that try to fly the Mig or Suchoi - they're using tactics that fit the F-15, and then they die.

 

Back in my days of flying on the 104th server, there's so many times where I killed migs with out effort when they were trying to be an F-15. And there's so many times where they killed me without me even knowing what the heck happened when thery used Mig tactics... ;)

[Cali]

Every jet has it's good and bad points, learn them, learn them all, that will only make u better. If you keep getting shot down by F-15's, maybe you should try and fly them.

[159th_Viper]

Adapt or be colorful? :D

 

:lol: No - a reference that fellow South-Africans will understand :)

 

A show of a legendary performer, Pieter-Dirk Uys

 

........and back on topic.

[Udat]

How was the participation in that 80's weekend, case? I'd be interested in those same kind of stats for that one if it's possible to view anything else than full months.

 

I can't help thinking that an 80's setting is probably the only credible way to realistically balance Lockon somewhat in multiplayer.

 

Personally I love fighting in an inferior plane, much because the feeling you get when you down an allmighty high-flying eagle or two with your ancient SAR missiles is just worth getting shot down now and then for.

 

Even better if you fly with someone and use teamwork to bring down numerically or technologically superior adversaries!

Edited December 3, 2010 by Udat

[Pilotasso]

 

This could no longer happen because a single Aircraft type dominates the Air to Air arena making competitive play nearly impossible without placing an equal number of that aircraft on each side.

 

The rest of the message is the same as we seen before from people who cant fly.

But this excerpt, sorry to say is deviated from the truth from any point of view even biased ones. Last time I saw you on any server was just before you started this thread, after I had shot you down. you were aaaaall alone my friend, and you flew straight into my sights. Obviously you cannot be any objective by flying the wrong tactics and above all this you still make incorrect statements. Worse, all evidence fails to point any dominace about f-15. In this particular mission I was being followed by EWR most of the time and promptly snipped at.

 

I advise you join any squad, the 51 probably fits you very good because they train heavily in anti F-15 tactics. Try it and you should change your mind.