Sense of speed

[Conure]

Hello all!

 

I have recently been playing rise of flight as well as Dcs: bs, and have a couple of questions... First, do you guys know if rise of flight is of the same calibre in terms of realism as Dcs: bs? Also, and please don't take this as an insult becaus I love the Dcs series, rise of flight feels like you're really flying, you can sense the speed of the vehicle... Is that the nature of the old aircraft, or because the engine is better at this kind of stuff? Really wish Dcs:bs gave the same sense of speed! It runs very very smoothly compared to Dcs: bs but maybe that is because it isn't simulating things like abris?

 

Slightly pointless question I guess but very curious!

 

Cheers!

[EtherealN]

Simulating "sense of speed" is a difficult thing to quantify. I can get plenty sense of speed in DCS:BS if I violate safe flight parameters through flying fast between buildings. :P At the same time Rise of Flight feels almost stationary whenever I get some altitude.

 

Basically, my opinion is that the nature of the object being simulated is what's causing this perceived distance - same way as driving a motorcycle in 120km/h feels a heck of a lot faster than driving an automobile in the same speed, and that's in reality so we can't discuss simulation engines there. :P

 

As for how rough the two are on the computers, that depends on a lot. Not just the ABRIS, but all the electronics, instruments, turbines (if I remember right the simulation in DCS:BS is a three-stage simulation of various parts of the turbine), hydraulics and so on and so forth. In Rise of Flight you have a simulation of the gas/oxygen mixture and the relevant effects of altitude on that and then... well... Not a whole lot more as far as simulating non-aerodynamics and such goes.

Edited December 12, 2010 by EtherealN

[WynnTTr]

There are a lot of little illusions that make up the sense of speed in RoF.

One is the open cockpit v enclosed one of the ka-50. You're primarily looking at your instruments/monitors rather than enjoying the outside view. If I looked outside the left window I get a sense of speed when sipping along.

 

Another is the way helicopters fly. IMO when you're drifting slightly but still going where you want to go, you lose that sense of full forward motion. Again, that's IMO. Collective/cyclic v full thrust throttle.

Have you ever noticed in those documentaries/films that show views outside a helicopter? It's hardly like you're zooming along. Even a WW2 fighter seems to roar past while modern Black Hawks look like they're floating forward.

 

I also find that the wind sound in RoF greatly contributes to the feeling that you're really flying. The wind rushing through your hair (er.. speakers) particularly if you lean left and right. I think I've almost shouted out to the missus once I got so caught up in the illusion of it.

But the biggest contributor of the sense of speed at low altitudes is the graphics. Obviously RoF's engine does trees and ground detail a lot better.

 

BS has a sense of speed, particular if you're flying it right, it's just different.

[Bucic]

Few technicals that make sensation better:

- FPS over 40

- Vsync on

[sobek]

Compare BS to this and you might find that the sense of speed is quite true to the real thing (IMHO at least).

Edited December 17, 2010 by sobek

[sylkhan]

Old monocore archaic engine Vs new multicore engine, not the same league :)

[EtherealN]

Incorrect in the technical aspect (FC2, DCS:BS and DCS:A-10C are not singlethreaded), and also irrelevant to the question posed.

[sylkhan]

The technical aspect isn't important, the fact is : dcs engine (based on the old flanker engine) is 99% monocore (except sound)

 

It's not irrelevant to the the question posed because Conure said "It runs very very smoothly compared to Dcs" and with a more smooth engine we have a better sense of speed

[Bucic]

Unnecessary diving into details again. RoF graph. engine is the next generation engine compared to DCS engine. Now you can continue the discussion on how much the better sensation of speed comes from the RoF engine being newer and how much of certain clever tricks done by the RoF team :)

[Boberro]

BS simply lacks of many things which give you speed immersion - stones, small bushes, urban architecture like billboards, advertisements, animals and so on. But after BS will be patched to A-10C standard with all features like grass ect, sense of speed is going to be better ;]

[Miro]

BS simply lacks of many things which give you speed immersion - stones, small bushes, urban architecture like billboards, advertisements, animals and so on. But after BS will be patched to A-10C standard with all features like grass ect, sense of speed is going to be better ;]

 

If i may give You rep for smart posts, i must give it at least 3 times at day, but unfortunatelly can't at this time:(

 

100% True Bob! :thumbup:

[EtherealN]

The technical aspect isn't important, the fact is : dcs engine (based on the old flanker engine) is 99% monocore (except sound)

 

It's not irrelevant to the the question posed because Conure said "It runs very very smoothly compared to Dcs" and with a more smooth engine we have a better sense of speed

 

Yeah, my sense of speed in DCS:BS will improve greatly from an increase in FPS on my system. Just a shame it's already as fast as my screen will update... :music_whistling:

 

But even then: graphics performance != sense of speed. This "sense of speed" is something that happens in your own head based on a sum total of stimuli, most of which are artistic in nature. (For example RoF has some neat tricks with the sound that do a superb job to give you that sense of speed, but obviously that's not possible to do in DCS:BS or DCS:Hog.) Again - the example of driving a motorcycle and driving an automobile. 120km/h on a motorcycle does not "feel" the same as 120km/h in an automobile - but the "graphics engine" is the same!

 

What RoF has done is to exploit those things in reality that tell our brain "hey, stuff's going fast now", which are things that cannot really be done in DCS:BS simply by the nature of what's being simulated. And then there's the nature of how the simulated object operates that also conspires to make a "sense of speed" very difficult to achieve.

 

But as I said: when I ignore safety protocols and fly the Shark real low and real fast (my favourite is to follow the rails through Sochi at ~3 meters altitude at 300+ km/h - if the overspeed warning isn't bleeping, I'm too slow! :D) I get a much better sense of speed than I do with RoF - exception being when I ignore safety in RoF and start flying slalom through the chimneys in the industrial districts, or fly through streets below roof level (which is extremely fun, btw ;) ).

 

It's the style of flying, and the type of aircraft, that matters the most.

 

Another example would be from FC2 - flying at Mach2 up at 50k feet "feels" almost stationary. Flying at less than half that speed but at treetop height, on the other hand...

[Bucic]

Yeah, my sense of speed in DCS:BS will improve greatly from an increase in FPS on my system. Just a shame it's already as fast as my screen will update... :music_whistling:

Much higher FPS will improve the sensation... if you are one of those geniuses who set up their games to operate around 25 FPS 'because anything more is just an overshot' :music_whistling: Trust me, there's plenty of them. That's why I mentioned high FPS as obligatory.

[EtherealN]

Well, yeah, but that depends a lot. I mean, you are better off with a rock-solid 30FPS than with an FPS that constantly hops around between 40 and 60 - the brain will be disturbed by the variability.

 

But my point was mainly that of Game Engine X being giving "smooth" graphics - I get smooth graphics from DCS:BS, as long as the mission itself isn't way funky in some specific way (so everything made by Panzertard goes out :D ). So any improvement he wants to claim is stuff that would make zero difference even on my somewhat old system. But I also mean that this is a very very small part of the effect we are actually discussing.

 

Anyways, I feel like I'm repeating myself so I'll just consider my point made for now. :)

[ZaltysZ]

FOV makes a lot of difference in sense of speed. The larger the FOV, the stronger sense of speed. This is because:

 

1) More details are seen at once.

2) You are able to see more to your sides. Speed is felt stronger when something is "moving" in sight and not just growing or shrinking.

 

It is easy to test this. Edit your view scripts and set max FOV to 180. Try flying near buildings with such FOV and it will look like speed increased a few times.

[Bucic]

I was talking about rock solid 60 :)

 

Conure, you can try the combined terrain mod (two mods working together). Try to find them yourself.

 

Filenames:

DEC 1808 ENHANCED TERRAIN MOD by Ruggbutt EXE LOF.exe

SIMMOD_LoReload_Terrain_Mod.zip

 

Read the installation instructions carefully (the instructions that say how to install the mods together).

[EtherealN]

Agreed with Zaltysz. Basically get some "peripheral vision" analogue going.

[msalama]

...the f*ck?

 

Someone up there posted a video of the real thingamagubby happily chopping away, and even me with my s**tty system has been able to achieve a reasonable facsimile of the real thing's movement about - and that pretty much without any stutters at all.

 

Soooo... you really want to prove any real lack of movement, let's you give us a ride in the real thingummybobby and then we talk :D

[Boberro]

I value more stable FPS than high FPS where human eye can't see... and is as good as penis size measurement race for kids :D

 

I'll try to set FOV up to 180* but the fish eye effect will be strong then :(

[ZaltysZ]

I value more stable FPS than high FPS where human eye can't see... and is as good as penis size measurement race for kids :D

 

It is a question not about what human eye sees, but at what frame rate human brains sees the sequence as smooth. This strongly depends on scene.

 

Low detail scene can look smooth even at 15FPS (especially with motion blur like in movies), but sharp, detailed and rapidly changing scene can look like it is stuttering even at 60 FPS.

 

I'll try to set FOV up to 180* but the fish eye effect will be strong then :(

 

Technically it is rectilinear projection (view is not curved, but stretched at edges), not a fish eye projection. 180 FOV with rectilinear projection is far from playable, but for sake of "sense of speed" experiment it will do the job. Something like 150 FOV would be more playable.

[Slayer]

You don't even need to really change the FOV , just bind a spare axis to the "zoom view" axis in your game. When you zoom back, the farther back you zoom, the faster movement you precieve.

[Slayer]

You don't even need to really change the FOV , just bind a spare axis to the "zoom view" axis in your game. When you zoom back, the farther back you zoom, the faster movement you precieve.