Dynamic Campaign Discussion Thread

[EtherealN]

Depends on what you mean by "possible". In DCS A-10C? Theoretically possible i think, but a lot of work involved. (You could even do it yourself through hooking a 3rd party applicatoin to LUA to read debriefs and so on, not sure if you can successfully hook to the mission generator properly though. That said, the mission system is pretty much just plain LUA so you could in theory make your own mission editor/generator and just call missions generated by that to the simulator. Obviously though this is not a simple task.)

 

Future products? Definitely "possible", and ED are constantly advancing the ME/Campaign side of it's products. Some day we might see something like that based on the mission generator that was included in DCS:A-10C, but that's a lot of "when" and "if" involved.

[lubey]

Maybe somewhere, someday. Although personally I prefer the idea of a dynamic campaign more like falcon 4.0's. Its truely dynamic and not just a set of randomly generated missions + carried over statistics. But I've only played the old ROF career mode so can't proplery comment on the new one.

[EtherealN]

Its truely dynamic and not just a set of randomly generated missions + carried over statistics.

 

That does not describe what I was talking about. ;)

[lubey]

Sorry EtherealN, I was more refering to the RoF style career though. From my interpretation of your post, the LUA scripts aren't just keeping track of statistics but could also use them as inputs for new missions (so you could sway the tide of war if you blow lots of stuff up)? You didn't mention whether they could play intro movies like in F4 :)

[EtherealN]

Technically you can do whatever you like with LUA, pretty much. With the LUA-socket and export it would, for example, be relatively easy to code an application that shuts down your computer if you get killed. :P (Or, for that matter, one that auto-starts your espresso machine whenever you drop an LGB, as long as said machine offers you a way to hotwire it's PLC.)

 

So as far as movies go, not that I consider them very useful: yes. They couldn't run those movies within the DCS process, but it (being the hypothetical 3rd party DC tool) could call BINK-player, let that run the movie, read that the BINK-player terminated (either due to you ESCing it or it finishing) and then call DCS.exe with the mission. It can then read actions and such through export and/or through debrief and use this information when deciding on what to do for your next mission. While you are playing you can also have it control your air conditioning to ensure that you get the proper wind-chill if you eject. (Again: assuming you find a way to hotwire a way into the PLC of your A/C, but you get the idea. :) If it's like mine you just need to find some IR diode that can transmit at the right frequencies and control it that way. )

 

Obvious point though being, you can do all this, but it takes too much work for modders to realistically consider, and in order to do it well as part of the product it has to actually pay for itself - so no shoddy half-step will do. Thus, it'll take a while. How much of a while? I don't know. I test the current stuff, not concept code, so I don't know much about the long-term plans of what'll get made or not. :)

Edited June 27, 2011 by EtherealN

[Irregular programming]

It is very possible to create a truly dynamic campaign, I have toyed with the idea and made a quick test app but nothing really came out of it.

 

Basically what you need is a third party application that would contain the campaign, this would be like a board game which have all the units on it, some rules and an AI that played the game for you. The app would also create and fly missions which you can "jump into". More or less just like the F4 campaign.

 

The program would then generate a mission and run it using the A10 executable and when you die, or exit, it would read the exported lua from the game to update the state of the campaign.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

Basically nothing about this is really hard, just very tedious, a lot of work, and there is a huge risk that you will run into strange bugs in the missions and bad compatibility between patches.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Irregular programming

[EtherealN]

It is very possible to create a truly dynamic campaign, I have toyed with the idea and made a quick test app but nothing really came out of it.

 

I thought about it as well a good while ago, but quickly came to the conclusion that my programming skills aren't even close to being up to the task. :P

 

Might be doable if a team of modders go together, but as you say: the issues in dealing with patches might make it too much of a nightmare to do except as part of the in-house development cycles. But I think the mission generator and it's features are an indication that they're thinking about it and moving in that direction - but they're doing it carefully. Being a small developer ED can't afford to bite off too much, lest it end up like Microprose.

[Speed]

Obvious point though being, you can do all this, but it takes too much work for modders to realistically consider, and in order to do it well as part of the product it has to actually pay for itself - so no shoddy half-step will do. Thus, it'll take a while. How much of a while? I don't know. I test the current stuff, not concept code, so I don't know much about the long-term plans of what'll get made or not. :)

 

Modders do not consider doing this because ED keeps changing their code too much for modders to keep up. Like, for example, in 1.1.0.8, debriefs do not get written till the end of the mission, have a new structure, and the events in the server environment are supposedly broken.

 

Some kind of persistent-world-like gui that builds DCS missions based off of the results of the previous, is certainly possible, and people have tried to do a little work on it... just check out the dynamic campaign discussion thread.

 

A team of modders could certainly do this, and I would be willing to help out myself, but I think ED is just changing their code too fast, and there isn't very good communication between the modders and ED as to what the modders need. A seemingly minor change to ED, that they don't think twice about, can completely break a mod with hundreds of hours of work behind it that a community has become to depend on- such as Moa's stats mod.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Speed

[EtherealN]

Modders do not consider doing this because ED keeps changing their code too much for modders to keep up. Like, for example, in 1.1.0.8, debriefs do not get written till the end of the mission, have a new structure, and the events in the server environment are supposedly broken.

 

Here you go:

 

Might be doable if a team of modders go together, but as you say: the issues in dealing with patches might make it too much of a nightmare to do except as part of the in-house development cycles.

 

Some kind of persistent-world-like gui that builds DCS missions based off of the results of the previous, is certainly possible, and people have tried to do a little work on it... just check out the dynamic campaign discussion thread.

 

I know. It's stated in this thread. ;)

 

A team of modders could certainly do this, and I would be willing to help out myself, but I think ED is just changing their code too fast, and there isn't very good communication between the modders and ED as to what the modders need. A seemingly minor change to ED, that they don't think twice about, can completely break a mod with hundreds of hours of work behind it that a community has become to depend on- such as Moa's stats mod.

 

There are ways of solving that. ED support has been very valuable with ServMan, for example.

[J. Heller]

If anyone here is even semi-serious about combat flight sims then you have to have played at least some iteration of Falcon4 at one point. If there is a better campaign engine out there I haven't seen it, and I have seen them all. The most digusting thing about this is that campaign engine is over, way over, a decade old. A completely dynamic campaign were everything happens in real time regardless if you are flying or not? Absolutely brilliant, nothing surpasses it to this day, kind of sad considering how good A-10C is that the campaign system is something out of Ace Combat. Maybe someday some developer will stop being lazy and give us an updated version of the Falcon4 campaign engine, hopefully it is ED.

[sobek]

A completely dynamic campaign were everything happens in real time regardless if you are flying or not?

 

If it's not happening inside the player bubble, conflict outcomes are completely based on statistics, just in case you didn't know...

[EtherealN]

The most digusting thing about this is that campaign engine is over, way over, a decade old. A completely dynamic campaign were everything happens in real time regardless if you are flying or not?

 

First, like Sobek said: if it's not close to you, it's pure statistics. Anything that happens away from the player is less detailed than, say, Starcraft 2. :P

 

But also, you might want to read the interview out there on the net with the guy who led the work on that campaign feature - I don't remember where I saw it but it was a Falcon fansite, and it went roughly like this:

 

"If I knew before going into it what I know now, would I have done it? No."

 

Basically, DCS is about simulation, not guesswork or half-assed solutions, and there is no dynamic campaign implementation - including F4's - that is capable of serving realistic scenarios. It can give you some smoke and mirrors and some fun factor through a sense of immersion, sure, but that's not enough to cover the absolutely immense development costs involved. ED is playing things smart through developing all aspects at a steady pace while taking advantage of what synergies it can - and in case you wonder, there's absolutely zero interest from the military customers in something like the F4 DC or, indeed, any DC.

 

Again: ED isn't thrilled about going the way of the Microprose.

Edited June 27, 2011 by EtherealN

[Murf7413]

I got to agree with Heller...

It IS amazing how far ahead of it's time the Falcon series Campaign Generator was. It truly is a shame that NOBODY has equaled it to this day, and it campaign Generator of that type would certainly be an asset to THIS.

 

In MY view, it is the ONLY thing that holds this sim back!!

[GGTharos]

If anyone here is even semi-serious about combat flight sims then you have to have played at least some iteration of Falcon4 at one point. If there is a better campaign engine out there I haven't seen it, and I have seen them all. The most digusting thing about this is that campaign engine is over, way over, a decade old. A completely dynamic campaign were everything happens in real time regardless if you are flying or not?

 

As Sobek said, not to mention the suicidal ATO. Furthermore, please demonstrate how this godlike DC engine can handle scenarios such as having to shoo or escort enemy bombers/recon in a /non/-shooting environment. Can it handle that type of mission?

 

Absolutely brilliant, nothing surpasses it to this day, kind of sad considering how good A-10C is that the campaign system is something out of Ace Combat. Maybe someday some developer will stop being lazy and give us an updated version of the Falcon4 campaign engine, hopefully it is ED.

 

It took close to a decade to develop the 1998 release of Falcon 4. It was a POS, and so was the DC. It has taken another decade to take it to where it is /now/, and you're calling DCS developers lazy, despite the fact that they keep upgrading the ME and building up the random mission generator so that they can stage things up instead of ending up bankrupt like some other company, so long ago?

 

I suggest that next time you decide to pass judgement like this, that you actually know what it is you're talking about.

[GGTharos]

Oh, I don't know, maybe people don't want to do 'amazing things ahead of their time' that will bankrupt their company. And in case you haven't heard, the DC creator himself said if he did it a second time, he would have done the DC very, very differently.

 

You guys are holding up an example of business failure as some icon of what flight sims should be like. Guess why no one wants to follow that path?

 

I got to agree with Heller...

It IS amazing how far ahead of it's time the Falcon series Campaign Generator was. It truly is a shame that NOBODY has equaled it to this day, and it campaign Generator of that type would certainly be an asset to THIS.

 

In MY view, it is the ONLY thing that holds this sim back!!

[sobek]

But also, you might want to read the interview out there on the net with the guy who led the work on that campaign feature - I don't remember where I saw it but it was a Falcon fansite, and it went roughly like this:

 

"If I knew before going into it what I know now, would I have done it? No."

 

There you go. ;)

[EtherealN]

Cheers Sobek. :)

My connection is being so awful right now (yay for multi-second ping to google etc) that I can't even google for stuff. :(

[EtherealN]

So, since my quotation was slightly off and I have the exact, here it is from the man himself:

 

Well, it’s just really hard to do. Looking back on it, I think the only reason we took on what we did is because we were too inexperienced to know better. Knowing what I do now, even given my experience on Falcon, the cost to develop such an engine would be substantial. Since flight sims don’t bring in that kind of revenue companies look at it from a cost to benefit standpoint and Dynamic Campaigns score pretty low in that regard. There is also the argument that scripted missions are more interesting which has some merit. I think if I were to do it over I would do a mix of scripted/generated missions, so that the player still feels like they’re involved in the world, but there is also some variety thrown in to keep things interesting.

[159th_Viper]

I think if I were to do it over I would do a mix of scripted/generated missions, so that the player still feels like they’re involved in the world, but there is also some variety thrown in to keep things interesting.

 

Funny - sounds as though that's exactly what we've got right now with DCS........

 

.......And it is!

 

Go figure :pilotfly:

[Conure]

I used to feel the same about wanting a dynamic campaign until I started playing with the 74th and saw some of their missions. Screw a random and patchy DC, this mission editor is so powerful you can create entire conflicts down to the tiniest details. If somebody has the motivation to create an epic story like conflict with hundreds of things going on it can all be done.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a DC, but the mission editor and the ability to craft truly personal and detailed missions is better in my opinion.

[Speed]

If somebody has the motivation to create an epic story like conflict with hundreds of things going on it can all be done.

 

There's a big part of your problem right there. I think I've flown every mission like at least once. There are some good and even great missions out there. Unfortunately, the lack of variety in the things you can do and the interactivity with the world gets really old after a while, till every tank kill feels exactly like the last. Even every SAM kill is exactly like the last. So not only do you know exactly what will happen in the mission since you've flown it like two times already, but even everything you do feels like everything you already did. Woohoo. Another helpless T-72 just got Pavewayed from 25k feet. What's new? And more importantly, since the mission will just be flown next week again, starting from scratch, who cares? It's not like the tank kills you got this mission will help a group of M1's screaming at you over the radio for air support face less tanks two missions down the road.

 

It would add an entirely different aspect to things if there were dynamic campaigns. Your efforts would actually count for something, rather than just another two dozen tank kills in the exact same mission that you fly next week, and the week after that. Of course, if you haven’t gotten bored with the tasks given to you in most missions yet, as I and many other have, then you may not see the need for a dynamic campaign as much as the rest of us do.

[GGTharos]

Why do you think 'another tank kill' won't feel like 'the previous tank kill' in the DC?

[WH_Boomer]

Why do you think 'another tank kill' won't feel like 'the previous tank kill' in the DC?

 

I think Speed said it best so I'll quote him here as well.

 

It's not like the tank kills you got this mission will help a group of M1's screaming at you over the radio for air support face less tanks two missions down the road.

 

It would add an entirely different aspect to things if there were dynamic campaigns. Your efforts would actually count for something, rather than just another two dozen tank kills in the exact same mission that you fly next week, and the week after that.

 

So if I "kill another tank" then it won't be available in the next mission. A key element in a Dynamic Campaign is the ability to keep your toys available while attriting your enemy.

[GGTharos]

You don't need a DC a la Falcon for this.

[winz]

But you need atleast a system to carry some variables values between campaign missions. Without that, you are unable to provide consistency between missions.