Tightening turns

[harock]

Seems like when i turn the plane around 180 , it takes a large amount of space and time to get her around.

Is there an airspeed/flap setting/throttle setting combo that will produce the tightest "turning radius" for this flying brick?

[Gearbox]

The faster the better, it's not an F-16. I don't think I ever take the throttles down from max until it's time to land. I usually roll to 90 degrees or even a bit more (slice turn) if I have altitude to spare, and the pull just hard enough to not bleed off too much airspeed.

[Frederf]

Depends on a lot. It looks like sustained turn at 210 knots sea level, drag 0, load factor 3, 35,000 pounds might be your best bet, something like a 1,600' radius.

 

It peaks somewhere at a relatively low speed. The tradeoff is slow speed means sustained turn load factor is low so lower turn rate. High speed is higher turn rate (to a point, corner speed) but the faster linear speed means a larger physical turn despite the high turn rate.

 

The smallest turn radius in practical terms is probably some stall turn hammerhead/chandelle type maneuver.

[Major SNAFU]

The faster the better, it's not an F-16. I don't think I ever take the throttles down from max until it's time to land. I usually roll to 90 degrees or even a bit more (slice turn) if I have altitude to spare, and the pull just hard enough to not bleed off too much airspeed.

 

Amen to that. I still fly Falcon 4 a bit and you just can't be thinking about turning and power in the same way (shoot, in the same universe) as with the A-10C

[Major SNAFU]

The smallest turn radius in practical terms is probably some stall turn hammerhead/chandelle type maneuver.

 

 

I will have to try this. I hadn't even considered this as a valid maneuver with the A-10C as I wasn't sure it would respond well to a hammer head. Ah well, it will be a learning experience. Thanks for the idea!

[GGTharos]

It really doesn't ... what exactly are you doing, and what is it that you are trying to do?

 

The A-10 offers very high turn rate if you're willing to bleed your speed. Just pull until you are riding the 2uAoA stall horn, and ride it until you're turned around. If you start such a turn at a slow speed, you will be doing a very slow sustained turn though ;)

If you want to do a sustained turn at 250-300kt, it will be large since the A-10 doesn't have a whole lot of thrust to put into sustaining a turn.

Likewise, turns at high altitude will be sluggish since jet engines lose thrust with altitude.

 

 

Seems like when i turn the plane around 180 , it takes a large amount of space and time to get her around.

Is there an airspeed/flap setting/throttle setting combo that will produce the tightest "turning radius" for this flying brick?

[159th_Viper]

Seems like when i turn the plane around 180....

 

A Split-S is one of the quickest ways if you are wanting to do a 180 and run.

[Major SNAFU]

A Split-S is one of the quickest ways if you are wanting to do a 180 and run.

 

I was trying some ACM last night to get a feel for the A10 and I tried a Split-S and just a few seconds into the vertical I got warning tone and a flashing Master Caution. As I am still reading the manual, I wasn't sure if I was overspeeding the A/C, had over-stressed something else or if this was just normal.

 

I will say that the Split-S came out well, although I was worried about something bad happening.

 

I recall my first overspeed incident with the BlackShark. That didn't end well at all.

[GGTharos]

If you hit 450kt you are exceeding Vne.

[majapahit]

in the training video's

the wingman (mister 'by-the-book?') uses speedbrakes every time he makes a tight turn

 

worth a try?

(I dont, havent a efficient button(s) for speedbrakes)

[tweet]

The smallest turn radius in practical terms is probably some stall turn hammerhead/chandelle type maneuver.

We used to teach the "wifferdill" as a good re-positioning maneuver. It has all of the ideas of a chandelle followed by a slice except it is completely informal. The basic idea is to exchange airspeed for altitude, use the slower airspeed to decrease turn radius for a lower ground displacement, and then recover the airspeed by descending. The wifferdill will usually gain energy but can be flown to lose it as well. So how do you do a wifferdill?

 

Start with a low to medium G pull to 20 to 45 degrees nose high. How high depends on how much smash you start with: low energy, low pitch and high energy high pitch. Higher pitch attitudes also tend to lose energy more than low to medium ones. Next you unload to 1 G with the wings level and wait for the aircraft slow to your target speed. You might get as low as 200 KIAS for a 10 degree pitch or need as high as 250+ KIAS for 45 degrees and lots of G in the turn. Again the higher the pitch attitude the higher the airspeed need to be when you start the roll for the next part. Roll into 90 to 135 degrees of bank and pull. This will start your nose down towards the horizon with a higher bank getting the job done quicker. The idea is to try to play the bank and G to get your nose around to the desired track with the nose about as much nose low as you used nose high. Roll out and unload wings level and let the jet accelerate. Begin the pull out at the desired altitude or airspeed and begin your re-attack. Lets put it all in short form:

 

1. Wings level pull
   
2. Set the desired pitch attitude
   
3. Unload to 1 G max and wait (unloading to zero G will help you gain energy but you will need to use a higher pitch attitude as your nose will fall as you wait for your target airspeed)
   
4. Roll into at least 90 degrees of bank and set your wings
   
5. Pull, playing bank and G to bring your nose around to the desired track as your nose gets about as much nose low as it was nose high
   
6. Roll, unloaded or you will drift off track, wings level
   
7. Unload to 1 G max and wait (unloading to zero G will help you accelerate faster but will also cause your nose to fall which may greatly steepen your nose down pitch)
   
8. Lead your recovery pull to attain the desired altitude/airspeed combination
   

 

You will generally gain more energy in a wifferdill that spends the most time unloaded and lose in one that is G'ed up. You will turn faster with more G. So depending on your situation you can do a wifferdill differently. The best way to learn this thing is to go out and fly some. Start out along a straight road at a 1000' AGL or so. Beginning at the same altitude and airspeed for each try them with low pitch, low & high bank, and low G to contrast with high pitch, high and low bank, and high G. Remember bank must always be 90 degrees or more to get the nose coming down. The things to look for are: how much displacement from the road occurs, how long it takes from beginning the maneuver to returning to wings level and level flight, note how much altitude and airspeed change from beginning to end. Then pick a few combinations of pitch, bank, and G to use. It won't be long before you can vary how you do things on the fly to get the results you want.

 

There are some tactical considerations too. IR threats in the area make using the vertical to re-attack a dicey play. Those nice hot engines against a cold sky make wonderful targets. AAA threats also gain from you climbing into the LOS. Run out a ways before wifferdilling to re-attack as a minimum. IR weapons tend to shorter range so separation mitigates the threat. In high threat environments you should just do a flat high G turn as low as possible or get above/outside of their threat envelope and bomb them to rubble.

[lubey]

in the training video's

the wingman (mister 'by-the-book?') uses speedbrakes every time he makes a tight turn

 

worth a try?

(I dont, havent a efficient button(s) for speedbrakes)

 

I reckon that is a terrible idea, your wingman needs to go back to aerodynamics 101.

 

Turning a plane is not like driving a car, the centripital force comes from the lift generated by the wings (well you could also use the rudder to slip and turn kind of like a ship does, but i digress). Drag is a by-product of lift, so to produce the greatest amount of lift you need max thrust, or equivalently, the least drag possible. So the clean configuration should be best.

 

Speedbrakes could be used momentarily however, if the plane begun a turn well above corner speed such that the turn was limited by the load factor (not likely in a hog).

[nomdeplume]

Speed brakes also slightly increase the roll rate, which will help you get into a hard turn quicker. I suspect though that they'd eat enough airspeed to have an overall detrimental impact if you're going for the tightest turn possible, except in the case that you're over corner speed.

[siege00]

Check out this vid:

 

There are certain times in this vid, ie. 3:42, 4:42, and others, where it's obvious that the pilot is popping open the brakes. From what I've come to understand, it is regular practice, not just demo maneuvers or because the pilot is overspeed, for A10 drivers to slide the brakes open (I'm not saying full brakes mind you) to increase the manueverability of the aircraft. It's not a slight increase, it is a significant one. It's significant enough for it to be practiced by A10 drivers. The deflection from the brakes definitely increases the roll rate and pull through rate with needing less aileron. If I recall my aerodynamic studies correctly, the deflection from the aileron causes the roll, while part of the break still lays flush with the wing, maintaining lift along the proper vector. Less slip, better turn. Definitely much better rolls.

 

Of course I could just walk down to the flightline at Pete and ask someone.

 

By the way, I couldn't tell a difference in Beta 3, but Beta 4 seems to have it modeled. Maybe it's just me, but try popping open the brakes just a touch before beginning a maneuver and see if you think it's more effective in sim.

[Geskes]

I think it is 130 dps vs 200 dps rollrate with 40% speedbrakes in our out.

 

Regarding the speedbrakes you might want to check out this thread:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=62684&highlight=excellent+edge+envelope

Edited January 11, 2011 by Geskes

[Tango]

Hi,

 

Roll rate should increase with speed brake up to 40% then drop off again. I think they updated the flight model in Beta 4 to reflect this.

 

@tweet: great explanation!

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[tweet]

I can certainly think of situations where a higher roll rate would be beneficial but I can also see major drawbacks to using the speed brake to effect the added rate. The chief problem among all is that the Hawg is already power limited, even clean which is seldom except for demos, and it doesn't often need the extra drag. The added weight and drag of high drag index weapon loadings worsens the situation and there would be structural concerns for the pylons and wing with increased G loading and high roll rates. I'd be surprised to find that the rolling G limits and non-rolling G limits were even close to being the same. The limits are generally somewhat less for rolling G and I'm positive they are for the Hawg without having specific knowledge. There may even be additional configuration limits to rolling G. What that means to a Hawg driver is that there would likely be times using the boards to improve roll rate are a seriously bad idea. (The tendency to do loaded rolls is something that has to be beaten out of a fledgling fighter pilot for this very reason as well as that they are not energy efficient.) I'd also be surprised if the real jet didn't have Dash 1 restrictions to the use of speed brakes to increase roll rate. I don't know if this is modeled in the sim but I thought I'd offer the concept for understanding of real life considerations.

 

Thanks Tango.