Ground Attack procedures/tactics

[ScEBlack1]

Hello all, I have been getting to know, learn and appreciate this great sim and the incredible A10C for what it can do and do well. Studying and reading the manual and watching as many videos as I can on YouTube and elsewhere on "How To" is fantastic and I learn something each time along with these great forums and good people. As much as watching and reading I have yet to really find material on ground attack procedures, what is the best approach, etc, etc. Can you all post good books you have read, websites that discuss ground attack, or anything that I can read to get a feel for entering a hostile area and making your bombs hit and getting home, I come from IL-2 (ww2) and also FC1&2 (pointy fighters) so I tend to "rush" the attack and not understand proper Ground Attack methods so any good reading would be great, thanks all.

[Seanner]

If you are trying to not get shot down you have to stay out of enemy weapon envelopes. There are a few ways (in decreasing reliability) to do this:

 

1. don't fly the mission

2. don't get detected

3. if detected, stay out of range

4. if in detected+in range, you are probably seconds from dying, so evade and use CMs

 

The only way you can accomplish 2&3 which IMO is the bread and butter of a proper plan of attack (1 you can't really do in the game and 4 you either messed up 2&3 or you had no choice to begin with) is by knowing exactly where and what the threats are. If the enemy has 4 short-range IR SAMs and you need to kill 8 tanks, you'd better use your mavs on the SAMs instead of the tanks. You have a 30mm gun as a "backup" for a reason. On the other hand if you only have to kill 4 tanks and can just dip in SAM range, it might be worth quickly taking out the tanks with mavs while dropping flares and evading, as being in gun range increases deaths to tanks and undetected MANPADs. If the enemy has lots of AAA and you have some LGBs, just fly ultra high and bomb the tanks one at a time.

 

There's no secret to winning missions, you just have to fly such that you don't fly into a missile/bullet. Hide behind hills and popup to take out your target(s) to minimize exposure (and drop CMs while doing it). Loft bombs and rockets over hills. Your CCRP and CCIP bomb fall lines don't have to be vertical, you can bank into your target for the entire bomb run to dodge fire. Use your long range weapons to out-range defenses and use the gun to kill the actual targets. Do whatever you must so you don't even RISK getting shot at, or at least try to do whatever you must so you don't get SHOT, and at the very least hit your targets before you get hit back so after you press ctrl+E,E,E it wasn't a total waste of time.

 

Also very important is recon. You should recon your target area for a while with your TGP, perhaps making several passes at 90 degrees to the target from long range, giving you plenty of time to do this without getting any closer, and all critical targets you can mark with a mark point. Then on your attack run you just slave things to mark points and you should've already found AAA and such...even MANPADs can be spotted (always use FLIR instead of CCD). Lastly, the JTAC is good about listing defenses. When he says 3 ZSU-23 1 mi northeast, you should probably not attack at low level from the northeast. Attacking from the southwest and using your gun at 1.5 mi gives you 2.5 mi separation from instant-death, which should be enough.

 

Really the most important point to stress is patience. Read the briefings, listen to JTAC, recon the area, find the defenses, plan a way to avoid or defeat them, know how you are going to escape, what counter measure program you need to have continuously running or on standby, where the terrain is............................ With this knowledge, if your IQ is a positive number, you should be able to devise your own plan to maximize your weapon damage while minimizing the enemies. It might be fun to fly at military power along the flight plan at whatever altitude waiting to get in mav range, but rest assured some guy is playing DCS: SA-10 waiting for some idiot to fly straight and level at the target he's tasked to protect, and lucky him, it's an aircraft with comparable performance to the Wright brothers' plane.

[Speed]

"If you are getting shot at, you are doing something wrong."

 

Of course this is not universally true, but most times, people get shot down because they needlessly expose themselves to enemy fire. If you are shooting your gun, pull out before you get within a mile if there is any kind of AAA or BMP threat. Additionally, when in doubt, just turn away and gain separation. Also, flying high, above 22K feet, keeps you out of the threat envelopes of the majority of enemy weapons systems.

[ScEBlack1]

Thanks guys for the great advice, but, I am more interested in reading up on such things in books, is there any good books on BAI (battlefield Air Interdiction) and ground pounding? thanks.

[hassata]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=60293

[ScEBlack1]

Yes Hassata I have seen those and they contain nothing I am looking for, those are manuals on the A10 and a book or two which I have ordered, but, I am looking for more than that, books that pertain to A to G tactics or such.

[hassata]

The book on Kosovo and Smallwood's book do a good job.

[Timmay]

Take a look at this:

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html

 

There is plenty of A-G tactics and theories for the A-10 hog driver.

 

Tim

[GGTharos]

You mean actual delivery tactics and procedures that are *gasp* classified?

 

No, you won't find those.

 

Yes Hassata I have seen those and they contain nothing I am looking for, those are manuals on the A10 and a book or two which I have ordered, but, I am looking for more than that, books that pertain to A to G tactics or such.

[lobo]

I think they have exactly what you want here:

 

http://www.airforce.com/opportunities/enlisted/

 

;)

[Cibit]

Cannot recommend highly enough the book from Paul bommer Grahame called Firestrike 7/9. A jtac in Afghanistan. Gives a great idea of what its like from the ground and can give facts you can use in game.

 

2nd to Apache's the A10's where his platform of choice

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fire-Strike-7-Paul-Grahame/dp/0091938066

 

Also A10's over Iraq worth a read

Edited March 14, 2011 by Cibit

[ScEBlack1]

Thanks guys.

[RodBorza]

Cannot recommend highly enough the book from Paul bommer Grahame called Firestrike 7/9. A jtac in Afghanistan. Gives a great idea of what its like from the ground and can give facts you can use in game.

 

2nd to Apache's the A10's where his platform of choice

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fire-Strike-7-Paul-Grahame/dp/0091938066

 

Also A10's over Iraq worth a read

 

Hey man, nice find!

It's already on my Amazon wish list.

In midst of "thousands" of books written on Iraq and Afeghanistan theaters, it's nice to find one with 5 stars of approval by most of the readers.

[Speed]

I've found that quite often, real life tactics just simply can't apply to the games we fly, which end up creating scenarios real pilots simply have never faced. Why use tactics developed in Afghanistan in real-life (a very low threat environment) when our virtual threat environment in DCS includes 2S6 and SA-15?

 

Completely different enemy threats are going to mean the real-life tactics developed in low threat environments can end up being quite useless. Many real life tactics are still just fine and dandy, but many are null and void and just stupid to use in the threat environments we operate our virtual A-10Cs in.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed is that people often box themselves into trying to use these real life tactics, even when common sense tells them to do otherwise.

 

I've had this happen: people sometimes ask me in a multiplayer flight, while I am cruising around at 25 thousand feet, "Speed, why are you flying so high?" I will answer, "To stay above the 2S6s". Then they will say, "But in real life, A-10s fly at like 15 thousand feet". Quite often, not but ten minutes later, those same folks will be in the silk, and then respawning back at their base because they were shot down by a 2S6 or SA-13 even. The fact is, in real life, the Taliban have ZERO 2S6s, ZERO SA-13, and VERY few MANPADS. The A-10 has never even faced the 2S6 to my knowledge. Why should you apply real life tactics that were never designed to be used against the weapons systems we are facing against in game?

 

I know that in Desert storm, A-10As suffered high losses from IR SHORAD and AAA. The A-10C remedies that by giving the A-10 supreme striking power from- guess what? HIGH ALTITUDE. JDAMs, GBU-10/12, Mavericks, CBUs- they all work from angels 20+ and with the sniper or lightning pod, you can target stuff from that high. Again, my point is, don't box yourself in with real-life tactics that do not apply to the situation you are facing in game. You now can play the altitude trump card against all but a few enemy defense types, and I would suggest you use that trump card. Even the SA-15 can be easily outranged if you are at like 24k feet. I’ve gotten AGM-65D locks from 9 miles on SA-15s at 20k+ feet. In one instance, I destroyed four SA-15s in a single pass, and they never even got a shot off on me. Altitude rules.

 

So while it’s never bad to look at real life tactics used, in fact, it’s GREAT to look at real life tactics, don’t let the desire to use real-life tactics blind you to common sense. Use the tactics that most make sense for you in the scenario you are facing. Use your head! The number one thing you can do to kill more targets and stay alive is simply never to let anyone shoot at you. So again, I will repeat my mantra: "If you are getting shot at, you are doing something wrong"...

Edited March 14, 2011 by Speed

[ScEBlack1]

It look like a good read, but, can only find it on Amazon uk, not in US Amazon sadly accept by Kindle.

[Snacko]

I would love to read a book like this. I think it would help me a lot with imersion in the game. But again, it is not available in the US yet.... argg.

[lobo]

Why use tactics developed in Afghanistan in real-life (a very low threat environment) when our virtual threat environment in DCS includes 2S6 and SA-15?

 

Maybe this is where the mission designers can help by creating realistic threat enviroments where the Hawg would actually do business? Or in a high threat scenario have a strike package to help peel the threats back so the Hawg can git-r-done.

[JimMack]

If you study the real life tactics of the A10, you can see that they changed depending on the ground to air threat - Iraq 1 & 2, Kosova, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Here is a suggested reading list:

Warthog: Flying the A-10 in the Gulf War Smallwood

A10s over Kosova Haave & Haan

The Warthog and the Close Air Support Debate Campbell

Danger Close - Tactical Air Controllers in Afghanistan and Iraq Call

Beyond Close Air Support Rand Project Air Force

and more info here:-

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1015428&postcount=4

 

I think the advantage of Flaming Cliffs, Black Shark and A10C is that the user can explore different tactics and discover what works and does not in a simulation environment without having to discover in real life with unfortunate consequences (The RAF Tornado SOP for low level attacks on defended airfields in Iraq 1 springs to mind - It was clear from simulation in TheBattleSim what would happen).

 

Fortunately, there is no real life experience (apart from Red Flag exercises) of operating in contested air space and against heavy ground defences. However in the simulations, one can see what strategies/tactics would work (I accept the point that this would only be "broad-brush", as the simulation can only approximate the actual performance of radar, weapons etc).

Edited March 15, 2011 by JimMack
more info

[isoul]

 

...

 

Completely different enemy threats are going to mean the real-life tactics developed in low threat environments can end up being quite useless. Many real life tactics are still just fine and dandy, but many are null and void and just stupid to use in the threat environments we operate our virtual A-10Cs in.

 

...

 

I will repeat my mantra: "If you are getting shot at, you are doing something wrong"...

 

A great general and military theorist, long time ago, said something like:

 

"In war, the simplest things are the best"

 

Common sense is the simplest "defence" we can use... Can't agre more with you Speed!

[Cibit]

"It could be argued that an Apache helicopter is a poor comparison to a CAS aircraft such as an A-10. The A-10 typically operates at 10,000 to 15,000 feet of altitude, and only dives lower to attack when on a strafing run. A common Apache tactic, on the other hand, is to fly low to hide behind buildings, trees, and hills, and only expose itself to the enemy to fire its weapons."

 

Quote taken from the following link and reference to afghanistan and Iraq

 

 

https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_5c540578-3300-4acb-bf28-deb4dccf6f7a/display.aspx?rs=publishedsearch

[JimMack]

I have just finished "Fire Strike 7/9" by Sgt Paul "Bommer" Grahame, ISBN 978-0-09193-807-9.

I can thoroughly recommend this book for anyone that is interested in JTAC and CAS operations.

"Bommer" was a JTAC in Helmand Province.

What is different from many other books concerning JTAC operations is that "Bommer" explains in detail individual missions, why he used a particular ordnance, the line and height of ingress etc etc. Many of the missions involved calling in at very danger close! He operated with Apaches, A-10Cs, F-15s, F-18s, F-16s, Harriers, UAVs etc and explains the strength and weakness of the platforms/ordnance.

[coolts]

Cheers Jim. Going to order that. I was looking for another good read after i finish "Apache".

[rextar]

Regarding getting shot down guys is there a radar jammer switch any where

Ive set up CM they are fine, read a few posts regarding a radar jammer switch... Where is it!

[Speed]

Regarding folks whining that high altitude A-10 attacks with JDAMs, Mavericks and LGBs (and NO gun runs) are not realistic, check out this article I read the other day:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110408/ap_on_re_eu/eu_nato_libya

 

In particular, these paragraphs are revealing about how real-life, high threat situations do in fact force normally low-flying aircraft like the A-10 to fly high:

 

Complicating matters further for NATO, ground fire over the Libyan battlefields remains a serious threat to any jet making low-level passes — a must for pilots trying to identify enemy forces in a fast-changing situation.

 

A U.S.-led coalition initially launched the air war on March 19. Although the first such strikes on Libyan targets quickly destroyed most of Gadhafi's fixed surface-to-air missile emplacements and the radars that control them, Gadhafi's forces are believed to have hundreds of automatic cannon and shoulder-launched rockets — including sophisticated Russian-built Iglas — that can easily down planes like A-10 Thunderbolts or AC-130 gunships at low altitudes.

 

NATO learned this the hard way during the 1999 war in Kosovo, where a number of its attack jets were struck by ground fire and had to make emergency landings at nearby alliance-held airports. Commanders then ordered the pilots not to descend lower than 5,000 meters (15,000 feet), keeping them outside the killing range of guns but drastically reducing the effectiveness of their bombing attacks on Serbian ground forces. Now, NATO jets are again operating mainly at higher altitudes, where Iglas and Gadhafi's pickup-mounted 37mm and 20mm guns cannot reach them.

 

This is proof of what I have been saying would happen; that real-life air force attack pilots do in fact fly high when the low altitude threat level gets too much.

 

Note that since 1999, wtih the technological advances that the A-10 has benefitted from, it now has a potent high-altitude attack. Also note that the statement "making low-level passes — a must for pilots trying to identify enemy forces in a fast-changing situation" refers to pilots trying to identify enemies in a confusing battlefield such as Libya. I'm not saying battlefields are not all confusing, but having actual US forces down there, with EPLRS and calling up exact MGRS grids of enemy forces to you, is a hell of a lot less confusing than something like Libya where both sides are using the same equipment and the pilot doesn't even have radio contact (as far as we know) with the forces he or she is trying to support. So flying low shouldn't be as important to spotting and identifying target swhen supporting US ground forces.

 

So keep in mind that while gun runs are fun, real-life pilots do not go "Rambo" in their A-10s if it is going to put them in serious jeopardy. Personally, I find gun runs pretty fun, but the 10-45 minute restart and fly back that you very often have to do after an ill-advised gun run puts the damper on that fun REALLY quick.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Speed

[stubboyo]

To turn on the jammer press the countermeasures switch in (like you're clicking a mouse button). If you don't have a Warthog HOTAS you'll need to bind a key or joystick button to this. You'll see the indicator on the countermeasures control panel change from "Standby" to "Active"

I've found that after a while the jammer turns itself off (I suppose to avoid cooking the pilot).

 

-Stubboyo