JDAMs thru' clouds w/JTAC: can you bomb "blind"?

[Bahger]

Here's the scenario: A target, let's say a bunker, has to be hit from altitude (20,000ft AGL) because of SAM threats in the area. On the day of the mission, a cloud layer exists at 15,000ft. You cannot lase from the aircraft through cloud, so which of the following 2 approaches would work in the sim:

 

i. Use an LGB but get a FAC to lase. Would the aircraft still receive laser spot/search guidance through the cloud layer? And even if it could, the only method of terminal guidance would be from the FAC but I don't think you can change the FAC's laser code so will the default code, used by the FAC for spot/search, also guide the bomb to the target?

 

ii. Use a JDAM because this guides to a GPS location on the ground and requires no lasing. In this case, if a FAC is on the ground to spot the target and send a datalink TAD triangle to guide the pilot to the location, if the pilot makes this his SPI, is that location accurate enough for the bomb to hit the target even if the pilot is "blind" because of the clouds? Or is this moot because the pilot would be able to see the target and refine his targeting solution through the IR vision modes of the TGP?

 

I know these seem like very basic questions but some definitive guidance here would save me a LOT of trial-and-error in attempting to design a night mission in which the player must hit a target with a guided munition through a cloud layer. Thanks!

[Sinky]

For the second question, as far as I'm aware the JTAC will give you coordinates near but not exactly on the target. I may be wrong since I haven't played the A-10C for quite some time.

[uri_ba]

Best option is to have the Target acquired via TGP, refine the target coods (set SPI to the TGP) an drop a JDAM on it.

 

please note, that because you can't lase the target you can't get accurate range and you use the TGP for an approximate location. so you need to use AREA mode and lock it on the base of the wall facing you. that will minimize the error (you will actually target the ground below the roof).

 

LGB are useless because of the clouds, so does the laser designation or IR pointing from JTAC.

[asparagin]

LGB are useless because of the clouds, so does the laser designation or IR pointing from JTAC.

 

It could work if the bombs are in a cloud free zone during the guidance phase.

[Teeps]

What if you set up a trigger of some sort so that the player receives a JTAC-like message that you have prewritten with the exact co-ords? Then the player could create a waypoint at those co-ordinates and use that as the target couldn't they?

[uri_ba]

It could work if the bombs are in a cloud free zone during the guidance phase.

 

yes, of course, if the clouds are less then say 3/8 you can maneuver between them.

but I understood his intention as overcast (or worst, night and you can't see the clouds blocking the LOS of the pod).

 

What if you set up a trigger of some sort so that the player receives a JTAC-like message that you have prewritten with the exact co-ords? Then the player could create a waypoint at those co-ordinates and use that as the target couldn't they?

 

Personally, I would prefer to look for the target from a rough location, and not "copy and paste" from a text message I don't know how fast it will disappear. so unless you get it Data linked (and even then you double check with the pod) I want to be "eyes on target".

 

I think it was back in 2003, I've heard about a blue-on-blue incident in Afghanistan, I don't remember the details, nor had any knowing if it really happened so regard it as such. JTAC was transmitting target location to an aircraft. the data was programmed to the JDAM and it was dropped. Unfortunately, he had just swapped batteries in his GPS-target-finder-gizmo, and failed to notice that the coods he transmitted were "self".

[asparagin]

yes, of course, if the clouds are less then say 3/8 you can maneuver between them.

but I understood his intention as overcast (or worst, night and you can't see the clouds blocking the LOS of the pod).

 

I imagine a mission with overcast, where you can`t get visual with TGP, but you get the coord from JTAC - approximated, so that you can drop in CCRP mode, then the bomb drops though the clods, and it can be directed in the terminal phase via JTAC laser.

 

Unfortunately, he had just swapped batteries in his GPS-target-finder-gizmo, and failed to notice that the coods he transmitted were "self".

 

And what happen then? :D

[Tyro-AWG]

If you had the exact coords its feasible. I was working on this for one of my own missions only the other day.

Before the days of JDAM however (and specifically in Bosnia and Kosovo) pilots of the UK's Harrier force were dropping iron bombs CCRP onto gps coords marked on their HUD. Now that's A-Level!

Of course, (and this is getting into the realms of weaponeering and I'm nowhere near being a QWI) you have to match the projected accuracy of your delivery with the size of the bomb you're dropping and take into account the likelihood/acceptability of collateral damage. E.g. I can only guarantee getting within 500m of the target, I can drop a 2000lb bomb but there is a nunnery 800m away and a school 700m in the opposite direction.

Everything is a compromise!

[StrongHarm]

NAV Points.

 

In the mission editor place a NAV Point on the map near your target. Zoom all the way in and move the point bullseye right over the intended target. It will automatically be ground level. Pull the NAV point up in the NAV Database and drop on it.

 

Take note that NAV Points are not automatically added to your mission db and they are not steerpoints. This would not be done with mobile targets.

[RodBorza]

Bagher,

Maybe this helps.

This guy was able to bomb through cloud cover, coordinates given by Marines on the ground.

Read the After Action report here

 

Part 1 starts at the bottom of the page.:joystick:

Edited March 22, 2011 by RodBorza

[asparagin]

This guy was able to bomb through cloud cover, coordinates given by Marines on the ground.

 

It worked because:

1. he could get exact coordinates with the TGP

2. he uses JDAM, so no lasing needed

[RodBorza]

It worked because:

1. he could get exact coordinates with the TGP

2. he uses JDAM, so no lasing needed

 

Yes, he does. Re-reading the report I noticed that he had to go below cloud cover and take the right coordinates with the TGP.

And yes, lasing is totally impossible. That's why JDAMs were invented in the first place (AFAIK).

 

But regarding the AAR, I think that if the JTAC gives you the coordinate, you would be able to insert it on the CDU or get the red triangle via data link. In any way it is possible to release the weapon over the cloud layer, but of course, you leave toomuch for chance since the coordinate is a approximation, may or may not be exactly on target.

[effte]

1) Exact coordinates. JTAC should, with a good map and good references, be able to give you good enough for CDU, and probably Mk84s I'd say. 30 to 50 meter precision.

 

2) Ground lasing. You need a cloud base high enough, and a drop precise enough, for the bomb to be in the basket where it can pick up the laser spot in time to allow it to guide onto the target when it comes out of the overcast. The more off your drop is, the more the bomb needs to correct and the higher the cloud base needs to be.

[RodBorza]

1) Exact coordinates. JTAC should, with a good map and good references, be able to give you good enough for CDU, and probably Mk84s I'd say. 30 to 50 meter precision.

 

2) Ground lasing. You need a cloud base high enough, and a drop precise enough, for the bomb to be in the basket where it can pick up the laser spot in time to allow it to guide onto the target when it comes out of the overcast. The more off your drop is, the more the bomb needs to correct and the higher the cloud base needs to be.

 

Good points.

Lase guided from the ground... need to be tested.

 

And Mk-84's are huge!

[asparagin]

2) Ground lasing. You need a cloud base high enough, and a drop precise enough, for the bomb to be in the basket where it can pick up the laser spot in time to allow it to guide onto the target when it comes out of the overcast. The more off your drop is, the more the bomb needs to correct and the higher the cloud base needs to be.

 

This I would like to do. Technical it should be possible with the approximate coordinates you get from JTAC to launch your LGB, so that it is in the guidance area.

But I still don´t know how to make the JTAC lase the target in the ME.

This threads are somehow related:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=70415

[Bahger]

But I still don't know how to make the JTAC lase the target in the ME.

I can get JTAC to spot-lase a target so that my TGP receives precise point guidance to the location. However, I'm awaiting confirmation that JTAC either cannot do terminal guidance of the LGB onto the target, or can only do so using the default code, as this cannot apparently be changed for the JTAC in the ME.

[OutOnTheOP]

Having been a Fire Supporter (working primarily with calling artillery and mortar fire, but with a secondary tasking of Terminal Air Control, and having attended the Joint Firepower Class for certification) I can tell you that yes, you can bomb through clouds, with some "ifs". Those are: IF the JTAC can give you a modestly accurate grid (the "tracking pattern" can be an oblong to circular shape, and varies in size with the angle the bomb comes in at and the height of the cloud ceiling/ distance from the target the bomb picks up the laser spot), and IF the cloud ceiling is high enough to permit the spot tracker in the bomb to acquire the spot with enough time-of-flight to maneuver for a hit.

Now, I've been out of the fire support field for a good three years now, but I can tell you even the lightweight rangefinders, if properly configured, will give you a target location approximately the size of the effective burst radius of an artillery round (50-75 meters), and even if degraded will still give you EASILY less than 200 meters. I don't remember the exact sizes of all the "tracking pattern" templates, but as I recall, they were generally 500 to 700 meters in size.

But yes, you CAN blind buddy-lase bomb an LGB through cloud ceiling IF you have a halfway competent target grid and buddy-lase from the JTAC. In fact, we used to practice buddy-lasing for lob-toss bombing and attack helicopters firing Hellfire in Lock-On-After-Launch (LOAL) mode; in both cases, the aircraft would never even see the target.

 

*edit* This all applies to Real Life , I have no idea if it's correctly implemented in DCS; I haven't tried a buddy-lase in DCS:W yet

[RodBorza]

OutOnTheOp,

 

Thanks for the inside information.

Good to know that it can be done, altough with some constraints.

Regarding the game, as you said, not sure it it's modelled.

It remains to be tested (added to my To Do list :D)

[asparagin]

I can get JTAC to spot-lase a target so that my TGP receives precise point guidance to the location. However, I'm awaiting confirmation that JTAC either cannot do terminal guidance of the LGB onto the target, or can only do so using the default code, as this cannot apparently be changed for the JTAC in the ME.

 

 

Yup Bahger, it's indeed the range, you have to put the JTAC ridiculously close so that you get laser.

 

But what I also noticed is the following:

I had a JTAC observing a moving convoy. When he sends the coordinates he sends them, I think for where he first sighted the convoy. Same thing with laser, he sends the laser in the same spot as the coordinates send. So guidance for moving targets doesn't seem possible.

I also don't see the point for the JTAC lasing at the moment, because I can either way, make the Link he send, SPI and then put the TGP on it, the laser point has the same effect.

 

Maybe someone can also confirm this.

 

I always thought that terminal guidance is possible through JTAC :cry:

[blackheart2502]

Hi everyone. I just finnished reading a great book called A Nightmare's Prayer. I picked it up on Amazon for the Kindle. The author was a USMC Harrier pilot flying CAS in Afghanistan in 2002 and 2003. He discusses working with JTAC's and using the Litening pod in a ton of detail. You can really feel the emotion of the mission for the pilots.

 

There was a JDAM dropped on friendlies at the beggining of the war but it was a crystal clear day. It was a case of a JTAC giving his GPS grid to the attack pilot in an F-18 who dropped on the grid he was given. There is footage of the attack on the internet. It happened while Special Forces and 10th Mountain Divsion soldiers were trying to retake the fortress in Mazar-i-Sharif that was being used to house all the Taliban and Al Queda fighters. The prisoners over powered the guards and a massive fight ensued.

 

I was a private in the 101st Airborne in Iraq in '05 and this incident was specifically mentioned to us. They taught us basic procedures for calling CAS in case we were in a fight and all the NCO's and officers were killed or wounded. The most important thing they stressed was to never ever give your grid location to a pilot. We were always told to give an approximate grid to get him in the ballpark and then talk his eyes on to your location. If you had a good solid grid for the bad guys by all means let him have that one! Most CAS pilots are flying single seat, have been airborne for HOURS, and now they are juiced on adrenaline to help you. They are probably listening to at least 3 radios and may be talking to multiple units on the ground. There is only so much one pilot can handle and when the time comes to drop the bomb he may be looking at a list of grids he has written on his kneeboard and input the wrong one into to the JDAM.

 

There are only two circumstances that I would feel comfortable calling in a JDAM through clouds. The enemy is inside my perimiter and we're all going to die anyway and I need a diversion to try and break contact and push him back or, the target is preplanned and way the hell away from me, and the pilot either has it positively identified with radar or a pod with IR. The radars in airplanes like the B-1B, B-2, F-15E, F-18 etc. can produce images of a target that are almost photographic in detail.

 

Anyway in a real war you're going to have SEAD assets to pop all the major sam threats. Whatever is left you should be able to get down in the mud with them and get eyes on before you have to do something dubious like dropping a big bomb through the clouds in response to a request for CAS from the ground.

 

blackheart2502

[Bahger]

These are really interesting real-life recollections, blackheart, thank you for sharing. You were a private? You write better than a Colonel I know. Thanks for the book recommendation, I will order it from Amazon.

[rp3917]

To add to earlier posts, to effectively bomb through cloud in the real world a JTAC or FAC will pass a 9 line BOC(Bomb on coordinate) on a type 2 control. In additionals he has to state the category or accuracy of the coordinates supplied. It has to be Cat 2 or less for the pilot to accept. Coordinates of a 1:50000 OS map considered Cat 4.

Cat 2 is acceived by JTAC software used on the ground.

I've sat on a hill and passed BOC type 2 controls in bad weather more than I like to remember!!

[Garfieldo]

These are really interesting real-life recollections, blackheart, thank you for sharing. You were a private? You write better than a Colonel I know. Thanks for the book recommendation, I will order it from Amazon.

 

I THINK he just gave an excerpt from the book, not his own story.

[StrongHarm]

Or maybe just 'a page from the same book'?

[Bahger]

I THINK he just gave an excerpt from the book, not his own story.

Ha, it's funny how powerfully deceiving the lack of quotation marks can be. Thanks for the correction!