Re-SPI Target Again After Lasing?

[polygonpusher]

After watching the wonderful Targeting Pod tutorial by ExcessiveHeadspace

 

A technical question arose...

 

Say for instance the target location is set as the SPI by the targeting pod, and you choose to fire the laser to have a more accurate target location...

 

In that case, do you then need to set the SPI Again (TMS Up Long) After the laser is fired, OR is firing the laser all that is necessary to "update" the SPI location?

 

This question had been bothering me for some time, and I'd be grateful for any clarification anyone could bring.

 

Thank you so much!

 

Happy Hunting

[Frederf]

It's the "update" one except the shift to the more accurate position happens only as long as the laser is providing range. The second you stop lasing it reverts to the less accurate positioning. There's a bug right now but it should change from T to L on the TGP page to show the status of the ranging method (T being terrain and L being laser).

 

Make sure to make your mark point or drop your JDAM when the laser's firing because after you stop it's back to old news.

[polygonpusher]

Ahhhh! Thank you Frederf! I understand now. :)

 

Can't wait to try it.

[Fakum]

I get it,,, but perhaps not?

This tutorial is great, I get the difference between the use of not using the laser to mark the targets and not. I seem to think im doing everything right to mark the target with the laser when the target is not masked, but checking my work, I still seem to be getting the mark point off the target from another angle?

My steps are:

Approach target area at about Angels 10- 15k,

TGP= SOI

Slew to target area (China Hat FWD Long)

Slew target area with TGP in AREA mode

Find Target and slew crosshairs on it.

Fire the Laser 1st (Target is NOT masked and L is flashing)

TMS up short to POINT track

Then TMS Right to set as mark point (while laser is still firing)

I do this for 4 trucks that are lined up and spaced out with no problem.

I now have 4 Mark Points

I switch to “Mark Points” on steering knob

I can now cycle thru my mark points via UFC Steer rocker.

At this point, to check my laser marks, which should be on the target from any angle, I go around and approach from a 90 or 180 deg angle, just so I can check the mark points with the TGP, to see if they are at least within a few feet,, they are not, they are as if I just point marked them without the use of the laser? I don’t understand what Im missing? Laser fires and I hold it while im marking the target?

I hope I don’t need to post a track, as I don’t know how to do that,,, but I will if its deemed essential? Thanks

[NoJoe]

It sounds like you're missing the step of setting the TGP's line of sight as the SPI (Sensor/System Point of Interest) by pressing TMS forward long while the TGP is the SOI (Sensor of Interest). This tells the A-10's computers that the reference point for bombing, making mark points, and such, is the TGP's line of sight.

 

It sounds like your steps should be:

 

Approach target area at about Angels 10- 15k

TGP= SOI

Slew to target area (China Hat FWD Long)

TGP = SPI with TMS forward long <----- This is the missing step

Slew target area with TGP in AREA mode

etc...

 

Try it again with that step, and let us know if it works out better. :)

 

--NoJoe

 

 

 

I get it,,, but perhaps not?

This tutorial is great, I get the difference between the use of not using the laser to mark the targets and not. I seem to think im doing everything right to mark the target with the laser when the target is not masked, but checking my work, I still seem to be getting the mark point off the target from another angle?

My steps are:

Approach target area at about Angels 10- 15k,

TGP= SOI

Slew to target area (China Hat FWD Long)

Slew target area with TGP in AREA mode

Find Target and slew crosshairs on it.

Fire the Laser 1st (Target is NOT masked and L is flashing)

TMS up short to POINT track

Then TMS Right to set as mark point (while laser is still firing)

I do this for 4 trucks that are lined up and spaced out with no problem.

I now have 4 Mark Points

I switch to “Mark Points” on steering knob

I can now cycle thru my mark points via UFC Steer rocker.

At this point, to check my laser marks, which should be on the target from any angle, I go around and approach from a 90 or 180 deg angle, just so I can check the mark points with the TGP, to see if they are at least within a few feet,, they are not, they are as if I just point marked them without the use of the laser? I don’t understand what Im missing? Laser fires and I hold it while im marking the target?

I hope I don’t need to post a track, as I don’t know how to do that,,, but I will if its deemed essential? Thanks

[Fakum]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,, Hmmmmmm,,, I dont recall seeing that specifically stated in the tutorials, but that could be an oversite on my part,,, for some reason,, I have it burned in my skull that once i am in Area track, and I "point track" w/ TMS up short, that makes it SPI??? I will try that,,, thanks

[Fakum]

Actually, I went back and looked at headsspaces video here, at no point does he TMS up long? Is that because hes doing Beta 2 at the time?

[159th_Viper]

Actually, I went back and looked at headsspaces video here, at no point does he TMS up long? Is that because hes doing Beta 2 at the time?

 

Insofar as SPI is concerned, there is no need to. The markpoint will be the SPI as soon as you toggle the steerpoint dial to mark as confirmed in lower left of HUD (SPI generator = STPT = Default Steerpoint = Markpoint) as opposed to the TGP (in which case you'll need the TMS Fwd Long).

[Fakum]

Yeah,,,, Im going back and looking and some of the great tutorial videos again,,, sure doesnt look like im doing anything wrong from what I stated earlier,,, so im still a bit confused as to why I am expieriencing this?

[159th_Viper]

In previous reiterations there indeed was a markpoint bug which I personally reported and followed up and which was resolved. It could be that it has 'snuck back in' so to speak.

 

I'll have a closer looksee and see what I can dig up.

[NoJoe]

I guess this brings up the question: in order to create a markpoint where the TGP is looking, doesn't the TGP need to be SPI?

 

Or is a markpoint created wherever the TGP is looking, regardless of SPI (for instance, if the SPI is still set to the steerpoint instead of the TGP)?

 

--NoJoe

 

(gah, so many three letter acronyms! )

[NoJoe]

TGP needs to be the SOI, but it doesn't have to be the SPI generator. If the SOI is the TGP then the TGP is the source for the offset markpoint position. It could also be the STPT, IFFCC, Maverick, TAD, or other sensor in which case that sensor would determine the mark location.

 

SOI and SPI are easily confused because they are three letters and begin with S. SOI is the answer to the question "what sensor?" SPI is the answer to the question "what point?"

 

It is understandable not to know which question is asked when making a mark since the airplane could have been built either way and it would have been acceptable. It turns out that in the case of an offset mark point it is "which sensor (will determine the location)?"

 

 

Awesome, thanks for the explanation! :thumbup: So I guess in that case, never mind to my previous posts. Hope I didn't confuse things further for Fakum.

 

--NoJoe

[Fakum]

I appreciate the feedback,,, im not anymore confused then I was before,,, I seem to be doing it all right, but again, I dont understand why my markpoints are charactersistic of me marking them without use of the laser, even though I am lasing them before marking? Thats where im confused?

[Fakum]

Sorry if I misinformed, but yes,, I am lasing while marking. As far as the inacurancies,,,, I tag the top of a bunker with a JDAM,,, and i watch it hit the X hair, but the Xhair on the TGP is a bit to far off,, again,,, like I marked it W/O laser

[Fish]

If you have a spi which is not any of your mark points, when in Mark mode on the steerpoint switch, you have to 'release' that SPI, with TMS 'BACK' long, only then does SPI focus move to the selected markpoint. If you have already slaved sensors to 'SPI' (with CHN FWD LNG) those sensors will just follow the focus to the markpoint, and you are set.

 

This confused the hell out of me for a while. Cause i got the spi from JTAC (rough position), marked targets, then switched to Mark mode, TMS UP long, slaved sensors, but none matched the mark points!! Because SPI was still the JTAC coord.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Fish

[Fakum]

@ Hender: Marking about 10 - 15 out. Good point you make, I will try both lasing and not lazing to see if there is any difference. Great suggestion!

 

@ Fish: I will try that as well, but I dont understand how "ALL" your markpoints could be off, I can see making a SPI mistake, but you can only have 1 SPI at a time (as I understand it). I will test though,,, thanks

[Fish]

@ ....but I dont understand how "ALL" your markpoints could be off....

 

You are correct. You can easy test, if you change the mark, sensors should move to new point. In that case my suggestion is not the issue. Perhaps posting a trk would help.

[Fakum]

Yeah,, I just might have to post a track,,, like I said though, hoping I dont have to as I have not learned how to,,, but I will if need be,,,, will do some suggested testing 1st though

[Fakum]

hmmm,,, i will check the manual for that range,,, I did a test and marked each of the 4 targets twice, once without laser, the next with. Each of the 4 targets I came back at from a differnt 90deg angle and found the markpoints were behind the targets and no change in location Lased or not (made no difference, marked as if laser was not used) you may have steered me in the right direction though,,, I shall see,,,,

[Fakum]

[ATTACH]57622[/ATTACH]I have a .trk file here,, I honestly dont know how to view it, I hope its what I just did to make an example?

 

I had 4 bunkers, marked each without laser, then with laser. 1st bunker is Mark point A (w/o laser) and B (with Laser), as I come back from a differnt angle, you can see the markpoints are not on the bunker, but behind as I cycle through the markpoints. I rushed through this to make it short,,, hope i didnt make any mistakes? perhaps someone can clue me in on how I can view these trk files myself?

[Fakum]

Thanks for the help with the track file,,,, I have some interesting results now. I took 1 target, came in at Angels 10K w/gradual descent. I made markpoints at increments of 10, 8, 6 & 4 miles out, again no laser/ then laser at each of the 4 intervals. The results are basically, at 10 out,, no change in markpoint, but at 8, 6 & 4 there was a difference. Track posted, thanks for the feedback, I don’t know if that’s the way its supposed to be,, but it is at least in this experiment.

[ATTACH]57672[/ATTACH]

[FreeFall]

Fakum,

 

I happened to find this very old thread/message (feel free to read the whole thread if you wish) while searching for something else:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1026297&postcount=40

 

Don't know if the info is totally valid with later versions of A-10C, but anyway.