Laser designation and IR in real life

[112th_Rossi]

Just curious about something regarding Laser designators and IR goggles...

 

In real life operations at night time, would it be extremely unwise to designate a target with a laser while night vision goggles could be in use by the enemy?

 

What im saying is, would it not expose the unit using the designator to all sorts of hurt, since theres a huge green laser beam shouting 'THERE HE IS!'.

 

Just curious :)

[Frostiken]

Yes, which is why you would turn off the pointer aspect.

 

Besides, there's also laser warning systems on tanks but they're more than happy to ignore it in-game.

[Phuz]

The TGP laser emits energy outside of the IR spectrum. The IR beam from the TGP on the other hand is visible with nvg.

[Irregular programming]

Would a laser warning system give warnings from IR energy?

[Frostiken]

The TGP laser emits energy outside of the IR spectrum. The IR beam from the TGP on the other hand is visible with nvg.

 

What? Wrong. It's simply a longer wavelength, one outside the ability of NVGs to see. I can't even guess what you thought the laser energy was... microwaves?

 

Compared to the entirety of the infrared spectrum, NVGs can barely see into it.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Frostiken

[Paco]

Good question. Firstly IR pointers and laser designators operate on two different spectrums. While you can "see" the IR pointer through NVG's you cannot see a Laser Designator. When lasing at night from the JTAC perspective we use a C-spot which attaches to the top of the SOFLAM and allows us to sight in the laser.

And yes....IR pointers work both ways, just like tracers and the enemy has them! So we take precautions with that.

Hope that helps.

[Frostiken]

Good job with the wavelengths. Didn't even occur to me, but we used to have to manually change the laser from combat to training on the pod itself on the LANTIRNS, totally forgot about it :)

 

I would imagine it's entirely unlikely a laser warning system would be set off by an infrared pointer. For one, it would make the system so vulnerable to spoofing that it'd be useless. Second, I imagine the laser warning is not only looking for directed laser energy, but also for it to be received in the proper coded pulses that is a laser designation. A pointer/marker is a solid beam of energy, the designations are rapid flashes.

 

Regardless, yes, the laser designator is IR, as as far as I know all the pods are Nd:YAGs. The fact that it's highly concentrated and of a higher intensity than a mere pointer, it's quite hazardous not only for people on the ground, but for munitions on the aircraft itself - this is why masking was implemented, so you can't fire the laser into your own bombs.

 

 

I did hear a story from OEF where a Talib was being tracked on LANTIRN, hoping they'd lead him back to his buddies, and he got his eyes cooked out since they were accidentally designating, as he kept turning to see if there was still an aircraft in the sky.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Frostiken

[OutOnTheOP]

I think it's a bit more than just a "warm" flashlight. I can't really speak for the output of the airborne designators, but the ones we used on the ground were powerful enough to cause severe burns. That story about the taliban fighter getting his eyes burnt from the laser? I can believe it; those lasers put out enough energy to literally boil your eyes (we got to learn all about a rather graphic description of a similar event, related in excruciating detail, from the early R&D days of laser designators during our new equipment training).

 

If the laser is putting out enough energy to boil water in a second or two, I imagine it could (with a long enough laze) cook off a bomb. Obviously, the thinner skinned the munition, the less time it would take.

[112th_Rossi]

Damn this forum is full of nerds! I love it.

 

Thanks for the answer Paco!

[Laud]

Damn this forum is full of nerds! I love it.

 

Thanks for the answer Paco!

 

Not really...

 

Fortunately it's full of professionals!

 

[EDIT] OK, there are also a lot of nerds! ;) Think I have to put myself into that group as well :p

[PB0KGM_Foxy]

very interesting topic

thank you to all participants :thumbup:

[Jinja]

agreed, v. interesting. Would love to hear that excruciating story from the R&D days.

[Phuz]

What? Wrong. It's simply a longer wavelength, one outside the ability of NVGs to see. I can't even guess what you thought the laser energy was... microwaves?

 

Compared to the entirety of the infrared spectrum, NVGs can barely see into it.

 

LoL..

 

You say im wrong then you go and say exactly what I said with different words.

 

Get a clue dude.

 

It is outside of the IR spectrum, a spectrum is defined as: an array of entities, as light waves or particles, ordered in accordance with the magnitudes of a common physical property, as wavelength or mass: often the band of colors produced when sunlight is passed through a prism, comprising red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet.

 

So in essence what you're saying is that because I said a yellow light is not blue I am wrong because the yellow light is still visible light.

 

You sir, are the one who needs a clue.

[112th_Rossi]

I can't even guess what you thought the laser energy was... microwaves?

 

Erm, a laser (Light Amplifcation due to Stimulated Emition of Radiation) is just highly exicted state of light, focused into a beam. It can be in any range of the light spectrum, including microwaves.

[Migo]

If ED doesn't have anything to do they can implement burning eyes with the laser if it's true. But I guess it's already in there, the soldiers just don't look directly into it ;-)

[Speed]

LoL..

 

You say im wrong then you go and say exactly what I said with different words.

 

Get a clue dude.

 

It is outside of the IR spectrum, a spectrum is defined as: an array of entities, as light waves or particles, ordered in accordance with the magnitudes of a common physical property, as wavelength or mass: often the band of colors produced when sunlight is passed through a prism, comprising red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet.

 

So in essence what you're saying is that because I said a yellow light is not blue I am wrong because the yellow light is still visible light.

 

You sir, are the one who needs a clue.

 

No, actually he's right, though he doesn't state his case in the... most respectful... possible manner, and probably hence your reply. Practically, IR is goes from 1 to like 14 microns in wavelength, beyond which, pretty much everything is blocked by the atmosphere. The TGP laser emits in IR. The NVGs pick up light in visible, near IR (NIR), (near IR being often defined as the light just a bit too red to be seen), and possibly, a little into the short wave IR (defined as 1-3 microns traditionally, I think, sometimes the definitions of NIR and SWIR overlap a bit).

 

Anyway, the point is, the TGP laser, the TGP pointer, and the TGP FLIR camera, they all operate in the IR spectral range, though, perhaps the pointer might be operating in what is often termed the near-IR range (NIR).

[ashcanpete]

The TGP laser emits energy outside of the IR spectrum. The IR beam from the TGP on the other hand is visible with nvg.

 

 

What you said is simply wrong. What frostiken said was not a different way of saying the same thing. What he said was right, what you said was wrong. Thats not a reason to get angry. I'm wrong all the time, and while I don't always like it, I try to admit it and learn something from it.

Edited August 5, 2011 by ashcanpete

[Frostiken]

You say im wrong then you go and say exactly what I said with different words.

 

Get a clue dude.

 

You do realize I actively work on the entire family of targeting pods and probably know more about them than anyone on this forum, right?

 

So in essence what you're saying is that because I said a yellow light is not blue I am wrong because the yellow light is still visible light.

 

What you said: "The TGP laser emits energy outside of the IR spectrum."

What the Tpod laser wavelength is: 1,000nm - 1,500nm.

What the IR spectrum is: 700nm - 1,000,000nm.

What you said: "The TGP laser emits energy outside of the IR spectrum"

Edited August 5, 2011 by Frostiken

[Krunkskimo]

Second, I imagine the laser warning is not only looking for directed laser energy, but also for it to be received in the proper coded pulses that is a laser designation. A pointer/marker is a solid beam of energy, the designations are rapid flashes.

 

technically dont all lasers pulse?

 

I'd imagine the laser warning system works off the same concept of a radar detector. You can generally identify what somthing is based on the wave length you receive. If you know what wave length are ideal for laseing, what are used for IR pointers, and ect, it would be easy to dicern whats pointing at you and if it's a threat or not.

[sobek]

technically dont all lasers pulse?

 

Nope. There is definately lasers that are continuous.

[Frostiken]

Nope. There is definately lasers that are continuous.

Even still, no need to get tied up in semantics - designation lasers pulse like a strobe. It's how the bomb can identify which laser point to drop towards.

[Laud]

Even still, no need to get tied up in semantics - designation lasers pulse like a strobe. It's how the bomb can identify which laser point to drop towards.

 

Which is what you set with the laser-code?

[Frostiken]

Which is what you set with the laser-code?

Exactly.