Real mode rudder inputs

[B1Helios]

Hey all,

 

Another question regarding the BS. In real mode and in game mode I have my rudder controls set to Joy RZ which is actually the twisting motion, Left and Right, on my Saitek X-65.

 

In game mode, when I command rudder inputs left and right the chopper responds positively, by turning exactly in the direction of the input.

 

However in sim mode I'm really fighting to get the chopper to turn. I've gone as far as disabling heading hold mode on the autopilot and it seems to help some. When I have the FCS (Red Box) up, I can plainly see the rudder line moving in the direction of the twist, yet the chopper appears to be fighting the command. If I twist too hard, it seems the blades cross and down I go.

 

I realize real mode is supposed to be more difficult than game mode, but it seems I'm fighting the heli more than I should be.

 

Is this simply the nature of the beast or is there something I missing? Access tune shows no null zone, ie 0, X and Y saturation are at 100%.

 

Cheers,

 

Brandon

[XCrosser]

First off, how fast are you going flying. The speed plays a huge role from what I've noticed. Also trimming also trims the "rudder" therefore if you trim while applying left/right yaw you will have less axis to control. Your display will still show you're stick at "center" because that is where your physical game stick is.

[Nate--IRL--]

The FCS Box reads the controller, if that looks to be responding correctly to what you are doing, everything is ok.

 

What is happening is that you are probably fighting the Autopilot/Stabilisation systems. Trim Often every few seconds. Also try flying with the Flight Director On.

 

Also have a read of this --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36246

 

As for Blade Clash.... When your speed is over 250km/hr to much right rudder or Left Cyclic will make the blades intersect. The Higher the speed the less room for manoeuvre you have.

 

Nate

[Booger]

What he means is the twisting of his stick's behavior doesn't accurately model spinning on that axis.

 

Let's say he's facing north in a hover.

 

If he twists his stick to the left (and holds it there), he will only travel about 45 degrees (Northwest). Upon re-centering his stick, it turns him back to facing north. The behavior is the same for the right.

 

What should happen (as we all know) is once you yaw, you should continuously spin. In game mode, this works fine. In Sim mode, it doesn't.

 

We've verified the differences between controls of the two modes (in Game Options) and they reflect a mirror image.

 

To reiterate: Twisting the handle only turns him slightly, then upon re-centering the stick, it faces him back to the original heading.

[Nate--IRL--]

What he means is the twisting of his stick's behavior doesn't accurately model spinning on that axis.

 

Let's say he's facing north in a hover.

 

If he twists his stick to the left (and holds it there), he will only travel about 45 degrees (Northwest). Upon re-centering his stick, it turns him back to facing north. The behavior is the same for the right.

 

What should happen (as we all know) is once you yaw, you should continuously spin. In game mode, this works fine. In Sim mode, it doesn't.

 

We've verified the differences between controls of the two modes (in Game Options) and they reflect a mirror image.

 

To reiterate: Twisting the handle only turns him slightly, then upon re-centering the stick, it faces him back to the original heading.

 

Also have a read of this --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36246

 

:)

 

Read the link again. You'll why this isn't the case.

 

EDIT:- Verify that the rudder is being deflected fully (When the stick is twisted fully) with the RCTRL-ENTER indicator in sim.

 

Nate

[Booger]

:)

 

Read the link again. You'll why this isn't the case.

 

Nate

 

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well enough.

 

If you are in a hover (with your AP on, of course) and give full left rudder, your helicopter will spin...endlessly. I think we can agree on this.

 

Note that I didn't mention auto-hover was used...it's not--it's a well-trimmed hover. Even if auto-hover was engaged, that still doesn't limit the pilot from completely spinning the aircraft.

 

EDIT:- Verify that the rudder is being deflected fully (When the stick is twisted fully) with the RCTRL-ENTER indicator in sim.

 

Although a good point (and it'll be checked), it wouldn't matter. All deflection would do (since it represents how much input is put on that control) is determine how fast he should spin. Even in auto-hover you can do a pretty darn slow spin.

 

See the problem?

[EtherealN]

I see what you are saying Booger, but I am inclined to agree with Nate.

 

People complaining about "fighting the AP" is relatively common, and a symptom of not co-operating with the AP properly. Also, if you have a certain amount of forward motion you'll also find that you have a hard time "overriding" the AP due to struggling both against the AP and the differetial arms of the two rotor discs plus aerodynamic resistance. Essentially, in this situation the helicopter is almost to be considered a fixed-wing aircraft.

 

A track would help to see what's happening and what's being done.

[B1Helios]

Thanks for the explanation Booger! Although I'd like to make a minor correction in the explanation.

 

In a hover with good trim, in real mode, without the auto-hover engaged and with only the autopilot bank and pitch modes engaged, (no heading hold), I can turn either direction 45 degrees via the twist of the stick upon which, at 45 degrees, the chopper begins to fight the turn and I cannot continually turn the aircraft. (remember I'm in a hover, and the indicated airspeed is 0).

 

Once I let go of the stick (hands free) the helicopter turns back to its original heading, ie the point I started from before engaging any rudder inputs. I find this odd since since I do not have the heading hold engaged on the autopilot.

 

I've other issues with autopilot Booger and I have extensively tested where once I turn on the auto-hover and then turn it off, it disengages my AP bank, pitch, and heading hold buttons. I have to manually turn them back on. If I engage the auto-hover again and then turn it off, it will not disengage those modes a 2nd time around. Seems only the first time it does this in which I have to go through this process each and every time just to get the auto-hover to work correctly.

 

Even after trimming the aircraft and then going into an auto-hover - about 50% of the time it seems as though it loses control. Hands free, the chopper will just start moving uncontrollably.

 

I'm inclined at this point to just forgoe even using the auto-hover since I can establish a decent hover without it. I'd also have no qualms not using heading hold mode either, but it seems, in this case it doesn't matter whether I have it engaged or not, the chopper fights wanting to do a complete turn in a hover, using only rudder inputs.

 

I'll also check out the link provided to see if I can glean anything that can help solve this. And provide a track to help clear up any confusion.

 

The autohover4.trk shows the auto-hover disengaging the ap's bank, pitch and heading modes. I'll have to get another trk up for the rudder issue as I lost the heli in the first track.

 

Well interestingly enough, I can't reproduce the issue with the rudder. If I turn off the ap heading hold, the rudder works as it should allowing me full rotation in either direction. With the mode engaged, I can continually turn, but once I release the stick the heli will auto turn back to its original heading as it should. Earlier today I, for the life of me, could not get the heli to respond as it should.

 

FYI - on the auto-hover disengaging the ap modes - it does this after I perform a cold and dark, not when starting a mission with the heli warm. We brainstormed my cold & dark procedures, but cannot find what could be causing this.

Autohover4.trk

Edited August 10, 2011 by B1Helios

[EtherealN]

If possible, can you create a map with just your helicopter, starting in the air, and just demostrate this behaviour a few times. After flight, select "save track" and use the "go advanced" button at the bottom of the thread here and then the paperclip icon to upload it.

 

What you are describing doesn't quite seem to make sense to me so I'd like to "see" it to try to make sense of what the chopper might be doing. They're complex beasts so it's sometimes hard to discern what's a bug and what is user error from descriptions alone.

[Booger]

People complaining about "fighting the AP" is relatively common, and a symptom of not co-operating with the AP properly. Also, if you have a certain amount of forward motion you'll also find that you have a hard time "overriding" the AP due to struggling both against the AP and the differetial arms of the two rotor discs plus aerodynamic resistance. Essentially, in this situation the helicopter is almost to be considered a fixed-wing aircraft.

 

The difference here is speed. Where his (and your) comments hold absolutely true with forward movement, Helio's problem isn't with fighting the AP with forward momentum only, it's the inability to spin while in a hover.

 

To illustrate better: Imagine pushing your left petal completely down and your helicopter spinning roughly 45 degrees to your left only...basically holding there. When you recenter your petals, the nose turns back to it's original position.

 

Where the confusion is happening I think is that the aircraft returns to it's original heading. On the surface, it does sound like the symptom of just another person fighting with the AP/auto-hover...but again, auto-hover & FD isn't engaged.

 

Mind you, again, that although auto-hover and FD would turn you back to a set heading, it would not hinder your ability to spin completely around while in a hover.

[159th_Viper]

Helios - Is this behaviour also experienced when Rudder Input is attended to via Keyboard? If not, would be indicative of a faulty controller as opposed to the SIM.

[EtherealN]

Which is why I asked for a track, which I see he has added to his post now.

 

I'll check it out when I get a moment. I'm a bit busy right now but will check it out as soon as I can.

 

EDIT: Sniped by Viper. Gav, if you have a moment to check it, can you check whether the input display correlates with the input he is trying to make?

[159th_Viper]

Nevermind - I just saw in an earlier post that he admitted not being able to replicate the issue so it would seem that the rudder-issue is fine after all.

 

....Well interestingly enough, I can't reproduce the issue with the rudder.....

[EtherealN]

Err... Now I'm confused. :P

[Booger]

The autohover4.trk shows the auto-hover disengaging the ap's bank, pitch and heading modes. I'll have to get another trk up for the rudder issue as I lost the heli in the first track.

 

The .trk is actually for a different issue (auto-hover disengaging AP).

 

He actually has 2 issues he's asking about.

[159th_Viper]

I'll have a look at the AH issue - again it may be the known issue of attempting to engage the AH outwith the parameters of the SAS. Not saying that that is the case, but I'll have a wee look after I downloaded the patch first.

[EtherealN]

but I'll have a wee look after I downloaded the patch first.

 

You and me both. I need to get a 1.0.2 install going again before I can check it out. :P

I'll try to catch up with this if I can, but I'm multitasking at the moment. :(

[Dejjvid]

Press and hold the trim button, then try to rotate. Also make sure that auto-turn to target is deselected.

[159th_Viper]

Press and hold the trim button, then try to rotate. Also make sure that auto-turn to target is deselected.

 

There is no Rudder issue ;)

 

AH disengaging SAS is the issue.

[B1Helios]

There is no Rudder issue ;)

 

AH disengaging SAS is the issue.

 

This is correct. Oddly enough I could not replicate the issue last night while trying to create a track for the rudder input issue. However, I seemed to have problems with this throughout the day as Booger and I flew, but, could not replicate it later in the evening.

 

The AH disengaging AP issue is still ongoing. I was inclined to say it was something I was missing or doing out of order during the start up procedure, but Booger and I went over the procedures pretty extensively, comparing tracks, going through it over TS etc.

 

The reason I suspect the start up sequence is b/c I do not seem to have this problem when I start in the heli warm. The track I provided for the AH issue goes through my start up procedure, so maybe one of you fine gents can find something that we continue to miss. :D

[Yurgon]

This is correct. Oddly enough I could not replicate the issue last night while trying to create a track for the rudder input issue. However, I seemed to have problems with this throughout the day as Booger and I flew, but, could not replicate it later in the evening.

 

Sooo, what's the main difference between trying to recreate a problem on your own vs. trying to fly with your buddy?

 

[i'll give you a few moments to figure it out :-) ]

 

Well, you don't wanna keep your buddy waiting, so you rush through the startup sequence. Et voila, there you go. The chopper isn't really ready yet. Ever notice how you have no airspeed indication in the HUD if you take off quickly after ramp start?

 

The same system responsible for HUD airspeed indication is also required for auto hover. Engaging auto hover too soon will inevitably switch off the described AP channels (IMO, this is a bad design decision by Kamov. Lots of us sim pilots have crashed because of this. I hope no real Ka-50 ever suffered from it).

 

Now the real question is: Which system is it that is taking so long to get ready? In the manual and a quick forum search I didn't find the answer, but my guess is that it's the INU alignment that does in fact take some 2 to 3 minutes until it's fully ready.

 

Further reading:

• Auto Hover disengaging other autopilot functions
  
• INU Alignment Status
  
• Hover Mode trouble
  
• Cold Start Speed Indication (Issue?)
  

 

One more thing, because the OP couldn't recreate the original problem: In your BS installation folder there's a directory called "Temp". It contains LastMissionTrack.trk and _LastMissionTrack.trk (the one before the last one), so even if you didn't select to save the track manually right after flight, you can always access the two previous flights this way. Maybe it'll help to post (or at least save) a track so you can look at it in detail later on.

[Booger]

Ever notice how you have no airspeed indication in the HUD if you take off quickly after ramp start?

 

The same system responsible for HUD airspeed indication is also required for auto hover.

 

Are you sure?

 

Actually there is a standard INU alignment time implemented now. I believe it's around 3 minutes. This is why some people complain about the lack of airspeed indication on the HUD during take-off. The INU was not ready.

 

There is no indication for INU alignment. Not sure if there is any in the real bird.

 

...but...

 

Hmm, using a quick start procedure, I can takeoff from a cold start in about 100 seconds (1:40). The aircraft position on the PVI updates normally, velocities, times to waypoint, etc., are also all good, and the autopilot is able to maintain attitude and velocity in Route mode, long before the ground speed comes up in the HUD, all indicating a good INU solution. Based on this and the "Doppler Nav" warning that sometimes comes over the EKRAN, I suspect the HUD ground speed velocity is actually coming from a doppler velocimeter (see http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=950&scr=default&lang=en, search for "doppler").

 

If the above is true, then the Doppler Velocimeter takes longer than the INU?

 

:doh:

 

I guess the easy answer would be at least waiting for the airspeed to display before carrying on (which will hopefully display during your initial hover prior to departing--it doesn't display, at least for me, while on the ground), regardless of which system does what...but it would certainly be nice to know for sure.

 

 

By the way, thanks for going through the trouble of finding/providing those different topic links. They were an excellent read.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Booger

[B1Helios]

Sooo, what's the main difference between trying to recreate a problem on your own vs. trying to fly with your buddy?

 

[i'll give you a few moments to figure it out :-) ]

 

Well, you don't wanna keep your buddy waiting, so you rush through the startup sequence. Et voila, there you go. The chopper isn't really ready yet. Ever notice how you have no airspeed indication in the HUD if you take off quickly after ramp start?

 

Well, true yes. I see the validity in having problems when rushing through things when flying with your buddies. But in this case while we were both trying to ascertain the cause of the problem, there was certainly no implied hurriedness going through the start up procedures and waiting for the INU to align.

 

There were actually quite a few times, after we'd both started our choppers where we were talking over TS for about 5 minutes before taking off.

 

Thanks for providing the links as well. I did find the one on the INU so I'll do some reading on the others.

[159th_Viper]

Well, true yes. I see the validity in having problems when rushing through things when flying with your buddies.....

 

OK - finally had a look at the track (apology for the delay).

 

Short-answer:

 

As per all the reasons mentioned in the linked threads which do not beg repeating, wait for Ground-Speed indication in the HUD prior to engaging AH. Necessary for AH - if relevant system is not online then AH will not function.

 

Herewith your start-up track: I took control at beginning of ascent, waited for system to come online and the rest as evident from track (excuse the lazy circles - no rudder input):

 

[ATTACH]55099[/ATTACH]

[Dejjvid]

I always take off without the gs indication, everything works fine except ah. It usually comes online within 1 min of flight. So you don't have to wait on the ground.