Pulling hair with the trim system

[EtherealN]

Which planes btw? That's interesting

 

Stuff like this:

[159th_Viper]

Does the altitude hold go through the engine controls or collective pitch at all?

 

Collective. Engine throttle setting remains at Auto for the duration of your flight, barring a catastrophe of sorts.

[StoOopiD]

ive been flying with the force 3d pro for awhile now. first advice i have is uncheck the center position option. i think the problem alot people are having is they're not paying attention to the rate of climb gauge (whatever its called) while they are trimming. if the gauge is +5 or over, the blackshark is not going to trim correctly.try to keep it close to zero. climb after u have trimmed. if u are determined to use the logitech profiler, do not use center spring force option, this causes the stick to force center. u want to be able to put the stick in a desired position and release the trim, the stick should stay in that position.

 

here is a thread i posted on how to setup the force 3d pro with BS. right now my settings are little different but this should get u in the ballpark. or u can try the setup in the video?lol god speed...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1284832#post1284832

 

the logitech profiler is absolutely useless. i play DCS BS, A-10 and FSX without the profiler and all the forces work perfectly.

Edited October 12, 2011 by StoOopiD

[WildBillKelsoe]

The more I get to know this the less I think it should be called a trim system at all. I know that it works to the same end as the trimmer on a fixed wing aircraft, but just from a psychological standpoint to avoid confusion it would be better if the comparison was never even made.

 

But I get it finally :)

 

I'm not sure how the collective / altitude hold works. Press collective brake (F by default) to set altitude but what does this do between the collective in-game and your flight stick? I notice I still have full control over power. Is it a 20% limit? I don't see anything on the mechanics of the thing in the manual but I swear I gave it a good check.

 

you have to set the Autopilot channel for ALT HOLD to on (blue key), then press and hold collective break, then set the collective to an output that would neither CLIMB/DESCENT the helo.

then release the collective break (F)

[adam12]

After many hours spent on the thing, I'm pretty sure that aside from my ignorance of the trim mechanics of helicopters, a big part of the problem was that the Logitech Force3D stick I use has no force feedback in the middle. Unless I am trimming the joystick quite drastically in one direction the stick is too close to centre to get FF.

 

I'm going to experiment with changing the saturation, so large joystick movements will produce small ones in-game. If that doesn't work I'll either find a way to disable FF entirely so the sim thinks I'm using a normal flight stick, or, I'll live with it/get a new joystick.

 

This information is posted mostly for others coming after me experiencing the same issues but I'm still going to check the thread for comments for a couple weeks.

[adam12]

Stuff like this:

 

Looks like a lot of fun. I wish there was a way to get rid of the canopy without ruining the LF.

[StoOopiD]

 

 

this is how ur stick should trim

 

 

sorry i couldnt get the youtube wraps to work?

Edited October 13, 2011 by StoOopiD

[EtherealN]

Looks like a lot of fun. I wish there was a way to get rid of the canopy without ruining the LF.

 

Without ruining the LF?

While you're flying you don't notice the canopy - it's literally like sitting in air. It's just more pronounced in that video due to how the camera works.

[zagan]

I think all of the stuff I've read on this trim thing are wrong, and the way it's meant to be used is generally wrong the manual is kind of right but it doesn't work very well.

 

I think of the trim the same as a boat trim, you steer and power up as you wish and how ever you like but once your at plane (level with water surface) you then use trim to make sure you stay level as waves will try to un-plane it and boat trim is more about holding the plane rather than trying to control stuff for you.

 

I see 3 different ways to fly the KA-50.

 

You use no trim you can fly it but you have to hold the stick at the right place the whole time.

 

With trim there's 2 ways and I guess the Russian description probably doesn't translate very well.

 

The manual says to hold the trim as you move the stick to where you want it you let go of the trim and then centre the stick, this works 1 out of 10 times.

 

I think this is how the trim is meant to be used and it's the same as the boat and I find this works 9 out of 10 times.

 

I will move the stick (say forward 3deg) and hold the stick in that position I will then press and let go the trim button and then let the stick centre itself.

 

I find the trim will hold the KA-50 in forward flight and keep going like that forever.

 

I can pull back on the stick without using the trim, and if I let go of the stick it'll go back the the forward flight which is the point of a trim, you can turn etc without needing to alter the trim.

 

I find if you hold the trim it doesn't get set into the right position.

 

I can take off go into forward flight pull up hold hover without the autopilot and can side step etc using the trim makes things real easy but it doesn't seem to have been explained properly but I think that's due to the translation.

 

Once I got this it was very easy to fly it.

[Jaximus Decimus]

I use the Logitech G940, which is force feedback, and it works pretty much the same way for me except I don't have to re-center the stick. I just point the Shark where I want it to go, press and release the trim button and everything gets locked down right where it is.

 

I believe I've read that holding down the trim button as you position the stick will keep the autopilot from wrestling you for control of the helicopter, but I pretty much exclusive use Flight Director, so I never have that problem anyway.

[adam12]

here is a thread i posted on how to setup the force 3d pro with BS. right now my settings are little different but this should get u in the ballpark. or u can try the setup in the video?lol god speed...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1284832#post1284832

 

the logitech profiler is absolutely useless. i play DCS BS, A-10 and FSX without the profiler and all the forces work perfectly.

 

I tried this and found that the force settings were now too low to work even the little bit they worked before.

 

Also I think the mapping settings are probably going to be different for each stick, but they are close to what I've been using.

[adam12]

Without ruining the LF?

While you're flying you don't notice the canopy - it's literally like sitting in air. It's just more pronounced in that video due to how the camera works.

 

LF = Lazy man's Laminar Flow

 

I know what you mean regarding the camera and the visuals, I just wish I could feel the air in my face too :)

 

Totally open cockpit is the best, but then you always need an engine :(

[adam12]

 

 

this is how ur stick should trim

 

 

sorry i couldnt get the youtube wraps to work?

 

Video looks fine. Thanks.

 

This is what I wish my stick would do, but the forces are too weak and it tends to want to come back into the central position. I still have to fight the stick to stay in position. Also there is no question of taking my hand off the stick. As soon as I let go, even if I have it trimmed and stable with my hand on it, the stick drifts to a different position and the helo goes nuts. I think the FF may be disabling itself when the heat from my hand is gone.

 

 

I think the F3D stick is just a hunk of crap.

[EtherealN]

Totally open cockpit is the best, but then you always need an engine :(

 

That's not strictly correct. ;)

 

 

Not the best glide ratio, but perfectly capable of staying up with thermals only. :) We also have a good few still-flying veterans at the central that have open pits. Remember - hang-gliders have a totally crap glide ratio (1:7 to 10 is fairly normal, if I remember right), and even they manage to stay up as long as they have some thermals, hangs or ridge to fly on.

 

Planes like the SG-38 in the video, and most of the old ones with open pits, don't have any trim system at all though, so they can tire you out severely during prolonged flights. Older ones are a bit touchy if you mis-plan your pattern as well, since they don't have shemmps, leaving side-slipping as the only rate adjustment tool: which causes you to ride in with crossed rudders. And as we all know: crossed rudders is a dangerous thing when down low. :)

[StoOopiD]

Video looks fine. Thanks.

 

This is what I wish my stick would do, but the forces are too weak and it tends to want to come back into the central position. I still have to fight the stick to stay in position. Also there is no question of taking my hand off the stick. As soon as I let go, even if I have it trimmed and stable with my hand on it, the stick drifts to a different position and the helo goes nuts. I think the FF may be disabling itself when the heat from my hand is gone.

 

 

I think the F3D stick is just a hunk of crap.

 

my force 3d pro trims like the video.

 

did u uninstall the Logitech poofiler? the poofiler is stacking forces and sensitivities that are already in the game. let it go....lol

 

JOY SLIDER

deadzone=0

sat. X=100

sat. Y=100

curve=-10

the slider box checked

JOY Y

dz=5

sat X=100

sat Y=55

curve=44

JOY X IS THE SAME AS JOY Y

 

JOY RZ

dz=10

sat X=80

sat Y=50

curve=39

 

Trimmer force =100

Shake=50

Central Position Trimmer Mode= unchecked

 

these are the settings im using with NO LOGITECH SOFEWARE !

Edited October 17, 2011 by StoOopiD

[adam12]

Yeah I've tried it with and without the profiler, and actually the profiler helps in my case. The forces were very weak without it.

 

And in every case it's always the same problem, it's only a matter of degree.

 

Basically, the stick is crap. I must have a faulty model, but I've come across numerous complaints on the web about the F3D along the same lines.

 

I have to find a way to tell the game it's not a FF stick and use the centre trim method.

[adam12]

That's not strictly correct. ;)

 

 

Not the best glide ratio, but perfectly capable of staying up with thermals only. :) We also have a good few still-flying veterans at the central that have open pits. Remember - hang-gliders have a totally crap glide ratio (1:7 to 10 is fairly normal, if I remember right), and even they manage to stay up as long as they have some thermals, hangs or ridge to fly on.

 

Planes like the SG-38 in the video, and most of the old ones with open pits, don't have any trim system at all though, so they can tire you out severely during prolonged flights. Older ones are a bit touchy if you mis-plan your pattern as well, since they don't have shemmps, leaving side-slipping as the only rate adjustment tool: which causes you to ride in with crossed rudders. And as we all know: crossed rudders is a dangerous thing when down low. :)

 

Wow, that is about as close to being a bird as I've ever seen. This is really amazing :) Now I know what to ask for from Santa. :):) I'd try hang gliding but it really scares the crap out of me.

[mjolner]

I may have missed it if someone mentioned it already, Right ALT+ ENTER brings up the axis-indicator thingy, this is very handy for getting a visual on where your trim is set if you are not using an FFB stick or are having other technical difficulties.

 

On a different note, some say not to use the trim reset button, I use it when I need to center my trim when I am getting ready to hover, time now, once you learn to control your ship, you may find it a useful button too.