My collection of bomb run problems

[Rongor]

Hi there, help from the veterans is needed:

 

1. unguided bombs

1.1. aiming with TDC maybe the only way to deliver bombs in CCRP mode while having no TGP attached. Because aiming by the HUD is never that precise, I always miss

1.2. aiming with TGP is much better (one should think). But even with 5mil CCRP or CCIP-CR, the bombs hit some 100 ft away from target. How can that be? I understand the 5mil solution cue representing some kind of guaranty, that bomb will hit as near as possible. Can one expect more accuracy unguided than in 5mil modes? If not, this is a waste.

1.3 I used a MK-82AIR in CCIP (without CR). Watching it fall down in F6 view I could right away notice the wind dragging it away from the impact point. It missed the target by some 100 ft. I released the bomb out of an altitude of 2000 ft...

I hate unguided bombs. They simply dont hit anything I am aiming for.:cry:

 

2. unguided and guided bombs

What is this ASL messing around? I understand to have that known windshield-wiper effect with the PBIL when rolling around the plane to keep the AZL in place. But why the hell doesnt the ASL do exactly what it has to do by name? I would expect it to show me the correct azimuth to keep. If I am turning towards the target, the ASL is not doing that. I can turn until my TVV reaches the ASL. If I then roll out to horizontal, the ASL simply wanders some degree to the side. Hitting it with my TVV is just a try and error. As I dont even get some kind of ASL course displayed nor the ASL crossing the heading tape at a fixed value, this tends to be very unprecise. To turn in directly on the ASL is almost impossible. Please dont think I just roll out too fast and/or too late and simply overshoot, that is not the issue. I am talking of small slight steering inputs. The problem I am speaking of is the ASL being displayed correctly ONLY if you are not turning. So to what benefit is the ASL designed this way?:mad:

 

 

Expect me to have passed the training tutorials and to be able to designate and use TDC, HUD-modes, TGP and SPI correctly.

 

:helpsmilie:

please

Edited October 30, 2011 by Rongor

[Jona33]

Hi there, help from the veterans is needed:

 

1. unguided bombs

1.1. aiming with TDC maybe the only way to deliver bombs in CCRP mode while having no TGP attached. Because aiming by the HUD is never that precise, I always miss

1.2. aiming with TGP is much better (one should think). But even with 5mil CCRP or CCIP-CR, the bombs hit some 100 ft away from target. How can that be? I understand the 5mil solution cue representing some kind of guaranty, that bomb will hit as near as possible. Can one expect more accuracy unguided than in 5mil modes? If not, this is a waste.

1.3 I used a MK-82AIR in CCIP (without CR). Watching it fall down in F6 view I could right away notice the wind dragging it away from the impact point. It missed the target by some 100 ft. I released the bomb out of an altitude of 2000 ft...

I hate unguided bombs. They simply dont hit anything I am aiming for.:cry:

:helpsmilie:

please

 

1: Without a TGP CCRP just isn't that good.

2:Not sure, can we have a track?

3: That's because AIR's are supposed to be used from about 100 feet or so. The idea is you can fly so low a normal bomb would hurt you but because of the the time it takes to fall with the Ballute you're OK.

[LostOblivion]

Rule #1 for successfully dropping single dumb bombs for precision impact: use CCIP! CCRP uses another calculation all together for determining when you should drop the bombs, while CCIP essentially shows where your bomb would hit, combined with that and that the margin for error is smaller with CCIP (your velocity component away from the target is a lot smaller) makes for more precise ordnance on target.

 

I only use CCRP for dumb bombs when dropping more than three bombs in ripple and when I have a precise SPI on target (TGP).

[159th_Viper]

Tracks......we need tracks :)

[Rongor]

3: That's because AIR's are supposed to be used from about 100 feet or so.

Didnt know that and also doubt the 100 ft (30.5 Meters!?) This would label those AIRs being not CCIP-able above some levels of lets say some 1000 ft.

As I did most of my faulty bomb runs with those AIRs, they probably caused the whole mess with my CCIP tests. I meanwhile tested with regular bombs and it worked fine.

 

Regarding the CCRP issues:

I figured already out something, that successfully cuts away most of my collection.

I understood the tracking modes of the TGP working for the same cause, tracking one unique position, but with two different options to do the job.

As I know this in RL, the computing unit can either compare several points (area track) or simply concentrate on the shape of a central spot (point track). Both track alternatives compare the image seen by the electro-optical sensor while flying across the scenery. In my RL FLIR system there is no other difference. If I track a more spot like tiny object, I select a point track. Is there a whole scene to be tracked or a lack of sharp shapes in the center of the scene, I chose area track (not called that way but equivalent modes). But in this simulation (dont have a clue about the RL TGP) the TGP fails in area tracking. Not heavily but steady. Depending on how long you corrected the area track target with DMS steering orders until release of bombs, the more erroneous calculations of the TGP area track result in a light divergency of the tracked position. As your track also pulls the SPI with it, the SPI slowly drifts away from the desired target. I at first marked a target in the TGP by SPIing it, then concentrated on piloting my ship according to meet the ASL requirements until the bomb was released. Until release, the SPI coordinates defining the CCRP solution had wandered off the target without my presence.

So I have to conclude, I never again will area track in this game for the purpose of CCRP.

 

Thank you guys so far.

 

My issue with the ASL remains.:music_whistling:

[kylania]

For me Area Track has always been little more than what I need to click through to get to Point Track. :)

[Eddie]

Rognor, post a track or two so we can actually see what you're doing wrong. The description you've given is very vague.

 

What dive angle and release height are you using for your CCIP runs?

What profile parameters have you set?

 

CCRP with dumb bombs is NOT, never has, and never will be pinpoint accurate. If it was we'd have no need for PGMs. A Mk82 within 50ft of target should be considered a hit, you can't drop a single weapons and expect to destroy the target, drop in stick of 2 or more with spacing appropriate to the target.

 

But as Ive already said, post some tracks so we can see exactly what your doing wrong and advise accordingly.

 

3: That's because AIR's are supposed to be used from about 100 feet or so.

 

Not true at all. 82AIRs can be released lower than slicks, but certainly not that low.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Eddie

[Rongor]

Ok Eddie, I might again test those AIRs tommorow and will deliver some track if the problem reoccurs.

My experience that lead to this thread is dug within a maybe 2 hours or so logfile and even I dont consider to work that through again to at least get some time marks only.

Your words to precision sound very plausible and in my last tests with regular unguided the outcome kept me successfully within those limits.

 

Besides the yet to test AIRs, I already learned to only use TGP point tracking for unguided bombing purposes if available. I cant remember anymore so well but if I released those AIRs with CCIPCR then my area track also would have caused my trouble with them. If my next AIR bombing succeeds, this will be the most likely guess what has. happened.

Then I will keep it with kylania's strategy.

 

So the ASL is all what is left of my trouble.:joystick:

[Eddie]

 

1.3 AIR bombs need CR/CCRP. It is too steep to drop them CCIP. If you can afford this much altitude then no need for AIR bombs at all! Drop AIRs 300-1000'.

 

No, just no.

 

If you're in a position to use CCRP then you don't need AIRs, or should use them in low drag mode. And even with AIRs, 1000ft is approching the limit of the safe delivery envelope. If you havent pickled by the time you hit 1000ft, it's time to come off dry and try again if safe to do so.

 

CCIP deliveries should be carried out using similar attack geometry to a high angle gun attack, ie around a 20-30 degree dive angle. The only difference between AIRs deployed in high drag configuration and slicks is the altitude at which you begin the dive and the minimum slat range you need to safely escape the weapons frag pattern.

[Daimaju]

Regarding CCRP and dumb bombs. I dropped a Mk82 from 10,000ft and hit my target, a tank, spot on...

I have no pic or video of it, because Ive never ever thought it would hit. Coincidence maybe... or is it really possible to do so?

[Eddie]

If you drop enough bombs, anything is possible. Of course, if the release is 100% perfect in every way, and the weather is on your side then yes, you can CCRP a single weapon onto target. The problem is, in the real (or sim) world things are never perfect. While it can be done, you don't plan and execute your attack on the assumption that it'll happen.

[luckyhendrix]

I don't find hitting target form 10'000 ft with mk82 in CCRP particularly hard, I do it often and most of the bombs land within sufficient range of the target to destroy it.

[Rongor]

Ok, so I am actually having a good time, also with those AIRs. Everybody regard my problems solved so far.

 

Brings me to my newest experience:

As already stated, TGP area track delivers some kind of erroneous data with time if SPI was set with this SOI, so the actual computed release/impact might have wandered while the pilot concentrates on steering towards the solution.

With TGP point track this is far more precise. BUT: Even point track can have it's difficulties. If I plan to attack in a low CCRP attack with AIRs, the LOS probably will be broken several times before release, imagine an attack on a Shilka standing in the middle of a city. Now the INR mode takes control in the TGP and tries to keep the position, until LOS is recovered to again provide tracking. If your LOS recovers only seconds before release, the position also could have drifted some meters while doing the automatic INR-coasting. Results in bomb missing or at least being not that precise as you would have expected, when entering the SPI solution a minute ago in the TGP.

Now my idea to this would be to first designate the target in the TGP while crossing it in a safe altitude in point track. Being directly above, mark it by TMS right, then SOI to the HUD, select the mark as a steerpoint, slaving TDC (and of course all other sensors, TGP) to the SPI by China hatting forward long. Now the SPI has the TDC as it's SOI source, still keeping the most precise position out of my TGP targeting before and no drift will take place, as I dont touch the TDC.

May these thoughts be correct, or am I doing this way to complicated? I am aware this may not really be needed every bomb run, I am just curious what could be the most precise method.

[Olgerd]

Being directly above, mark it by TMS right, then SOI to the HUD, select the mark as a steerpoint

 

Another way would be to make TAD SOI, to hook the mark, and to make it SPI via TAD.

[Speed]

Well, at least up to last patch, if there was no wind, CCRP would be very accurate even from high altitude. I used to drop CBU-97s from 26k feet, and they would impact spot-on. I don't do this anymore because CBU-97s are temporarily mostly useless against heavy armor.

 

But I think it's solely the wind that is screwing up CCRP. If not for wind, you will have CCRP impact points accurate enough for high altitude cluster-bombing. I doubt you will hit close enough to kill with an iron bomb though... that's just general inaccuracy inherit in unguided munitions.

[Jona33]

Not true at all. 82AIRs can be released lower than slicks, but certainly not that low.

 

But It's so much fun. :lol:

[Eddie]

But It's so much fun. :lol:

 

You won't be saying that IF and when fragmentation effects are modelled. ;)